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  #81  
Old 08-02-2005, 07:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reina
The thing is is that you have to look at it the way the the ppl who commit the human rights violations see it. If they see it as a religious, societal/cultural, whatever way of handling things than that is the way I see it. ANd so one has to be a bit more realistic and see it through their eyes. I think campaigns to bring light to these issues will definitely help, but for the most part-no.
No you don't. Nothing that is wrong in this world would ever change if everyone had to see things in the same way as the wrong-headed people. I have worked in this field for a long time, and there are definitely very established, tried and true techniques that can be applied to change hearts and minds. I think part of the crime in this is that there is little to no funding to plan and implement them for this particular issue. Far more money is spent in a single year trying to get people to change their attitudes about Coca Cola than is spent on correcting this human rights abuse. :(

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Maybe I am wrong about this philosophy.
I think you are.

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But real change starts at home. ANd until the very ones who are exposed to honor killings upfront call for change, there will be little change. That is no matter how much want it or try for it. I think this issue is a matter of the heart and then mind.
But there are people in Jordan who have been working on this and calling for change. That train left the station at least a decade ago. Activists, attorneys, journalists, members of the JRF. There has been a cry from within.
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  #82  
Old 08-02-2005, 08:38 PM
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But I am mainly talking about the people, not the elite group. If the people, especially the tribes, aren't willing to change than how will this issue change? I am sorry, and I am still learning about the world. I really don't think this issue can drastically improve. I really don't see how much can change. And although the Royal family has jumped on the bandwagon against honr killings, I don't see much voice about it now.
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  #83  
Old 08-02-2005, 08:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reina
But I am mainly talking about the people, not the elite group. If the people, especially the tribes, aren't willing to change than how will this issue change? I am sorry, and I am still learning about the world. I really don't think this issue can drastically improve. I really don't see how much can change. And although the Royal family has jumped on the bandwagon against honr killings, I don't see much voice about it now.
Sorry, this is an extremely complex issue, and I don't have time to train you, Reina. But there are established methods of changing hearts and minds, and they have to do with how information and beliefs are disseminated (usually originating with just a few thought leaders) and capitalizing on that with sound, empirically-based, systematic, well-executed campaigns. The JRF is not out front on this. From what I've seen, they only respond when the activists, attorneys, and journalists exert pressure. Lately, they haven't been exerting much pressure, though.
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  #84  
Old 08-02-2005, 08:53 PM
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Here is a really interestin article about this issue and how it relates to Jordan. From the Middle Eastern Quarterly

"Honor" Murders – Why the Perps Get off Easy
by Yotam Feldner

http://www.meforum.org/article/50
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  #85  
Old 08-02-2005, 08:56 PM
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I guess it will have to start with one step at a time. YEs this is a very complex issue. Thank God for those who are taking the time to deal with it.

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Originally Posted by papillon
Sorry, this is an extremely complex issue, and I don't have time to train you, Reina. But there are established methods of changing hearts and minds, and they have to do with how information and beliefs are disseminated (usually originating with just a few thought leaders) and capitalizing on that with sound, empirically-based, systematic, well-executed campaigns. The JRF is not out front on this. From what I've seen, they only respond when the activists, attorneys, and journalists exert pressure. Lately, they haven't been exerting much pressure, though.
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  #86  
Old 08-03-2005, 12:29 AM
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why are honor killings so common in jordan?? i mean, what is it about the society that increases the number as compared to other Islamic countries? it can't be the tribal society because that sort of society is common accross the middle east and north africa. is it just because the media reports it more?? i don't think even that is true...

can someone tell me why...maybe there is not even a reason for this but maybe a jordanian knows or someone can offer a theory.
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  #87  
Old 08-03-2005, 12:32 AM
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I thought it was a problem in other countries too. DOn't think that it is not true. EVen Prince Ghazi bin Mohammed wrote about the tribes and honor killings in his book, The Tribes of Jordan, so there is some credible evidence.
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  #88  
Old 08-03-2005, 12:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madonna23
why are honor killings so common in jordan?? i mean, what is it about the society that increases the number as compared to other Islamic countries?
According to UN estimates, globally there are approximately 5000 "honor" killings per annum. Accurate statistics are difficult to come by, however, since many of them are disguised as suicides or unreported. Somewhere between 800 and 900 of them occur in Pakistan, so it has the highest number. Jordan, however, has one of the highest per capita rates at about 20 to 25 per annum on a population base of significantly less than six million.

Pakistan actually has stricter legislation in place for dealing with these crimes now, though, so maybe we will see a deterrent effect from that. Jordan, however, still has three penal code articles on the books--Articles 97, 98 (the one most often used), and 340--that offer great leniency, and these are what permit the perpetrators to get off so easily.
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  #89  
Old 08-03-2005, 02:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reina
Now it seems that although fornication and other sins are discouraged in Muslim society, don't you think that it will only lead the young ones into other ways of doing sinful stuff. Such as different types of relations that might not break the hymen, homosexuality, getting surgery to replace the hymen, etc? I wonder what the religious ppl have to say.
Papillion has articulated herself on this honour killings subject matter masterfully several times now, and I (as you may deduce from earlier posts) am in complete agreement with her.

I just wanted to add, however, that the "sins" you mention are not considered as such by many. Morality is subjective, and not everyone shares your particular brand.

I know many gay posters here (and I'm sure there are many) would find your position offensive. Bottom line here is that morality is subjective & there is no universal moral code.
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  #90  
Old 08-03-2005, 02:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean.~
Papillion has articulated herself on this honour killings subject matter masterfully several times now, and I (as you may deduce from earlier posts) am in complete agreement with her.

I just wanted to add, however, that the "sins" you mention are not considered as such by man. Morality is subjective, and not everyone shares your particular brand.

I know many gay posters here (and I'm sure there are many) would find your position offensive. Bottom line here is that morality is subjective & there is no universal moral code.
Sean, thank you!!! I have missed your voice on the JRF threads. :)

And I concur with your comments about morality. Sometimes the tone on this forum is awfully high handed.
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  #91  
Old 08-03-2005, 04:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reina
Thanks again for your explanation. I am glad you are upfront about this issue. But I have read about how cloistered society can be when it is like this. DOn't get me wrong, I believe ppl should wait till they get married to have sexual relations. In fact, in the church we are taught to wait until marriage and to not fornicate. However, ppl do make mistakes and fall into sin. Increasingly, churches are realizing this and providing services to help single parents. But most importantly they are providing love, non-judgment, understanding, and encouragement to get back in the Word and draw closer to Him. But in order to prevent ppl from fornicating and other sins or to get out of that and other sins is that we are teaching them what the Word says and encouraging them to have a relationship w/ Christ. The church is talkign about these issues upfront, so ppl will know the Biblical stance on these types of issues. It definitely helps alot.
Now it seems that although fornication and other sins are discouraged in Muslim society, don't you think that it will only lead the young ones into other ways of doing sinful stuff. Such as different types of relations that might not break the hymen, homosexuality, getting surgery to replace the hymen, etc? I wonder what the religious ppl have to say. And what about if a girl is rape and most of the time she is blamed. She gets killed, but it wasn't her fault. Now, personally I don't think the issue of honor killings will ever get solved b/c it is too fundamental in belief and creed. But I hope some ppl will realize what's up and behave better in regards to this issue. Of course not everyone does it. But even if one was killed as a result of honor killings would be too much. But I think what would definitely help is love, especially love coming from religious authorities and the community.
Thank you so much at least someone understand what I was saying and didn't misinterpret it. To answer your question part of the problem in certain cases has been due to the dogmatic way in which Certain members of Al-Ulama (Religious schollars inc Jurists) have taught such a subject. Many have taught that in many cases there is only one way to performing Islam. Some within the community have found that stifling and have either chosen to no longer practice the religion. In addition, some have left the faith altogether.

As to whether or not certain individuals have performed or would perform such in the future, as a means for hiding the aforesaid, I really have no Idea. One could Ideally say that such people are Muslims and wouldn't do such a thing and most wouldn't (one hopes.) As for the others I don't know what's in their minds either and can only make suppositions.

No if a girl/Woman has been raped Islam doesn't blame her because there is nothing that could have prevented it. Although in the past some have tried to blame girls/women for the act.

I agree with you. However in some cases (I've personally witnessed them) it has been about pride and some have not been so willing to show lenience. Especially, in societies where it's about reputation etc.

There have been some that have tended to other relations, which don't break the hymen but have done it in secret. Hence when they marry not many outside the their close circle of friends and maybe certain relatives know.
Also it depends upon where they hang out, ie going to Coffee Houses, a friends House etc.

Many of Al-Ulama have shown understanding but others have gone for the jugular. Thereafter because of the rules in society many have not wanted to go against the judgements. I hope this helps:)
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  #92  
Old 08-03-2005, 05:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by papillon
According to UN estimates, globally there are approximately 5000 "honor" killings per annum. Accurate statistics are difficult to come by, however, since many of them are disguised as suicides or unreported. Somewhere between 800 and 900 of them occur in Pakistan, so it has the highest number. Jordan, however, has one of the highest per capita rates at about 20 to 25 per annum on a population base of significantly less than six million.
In Western countries (where the punishment is much harsher and the crime is treated as murder by the courts) the per capita rate is sometimes even higher: in Berlin there were recently 6 in a year (among a Muslim community of about 150.000, mostly Turcs).
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  #93  
Old 08-03-2005, 06:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Veram98
In Western countries (where the punishment is much harsher and the crime is treated as murder by the courts) the per capita rate is sometimes even higher: in Berlin there were recently 6 in a year (among a Muslim community of about 150.000, mostly Turcs).
Your right, especially about the Turkish Estimate. That is also because in Turkey, they have a thing (I know because I grew up with those whom are Turkish) which is if the Lady in question isn't a virgin during her wedding night the father has the right shoot her. I'm not sure if, it's law in Turkey though.
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  #94  
Old 08-03-2005, 12:28 PM
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As a Christian and b/c of my own consciousness, I myself do consider those "sins" sin and I am not ashamed to say that. Furthermore, Muslims consider these sins and it is a serious offense to them. This is what I am talking about looking at this issue the way they are. Homosexuality, fornication, adultery, etc. are big offenses in Islam (and CHristianity). They are not tolerated in society (like it is in the West) and so I choose to respect their beliefs (of course not of honor killings, but to take in light the fact that they consider those sins). I think you are committing the bigger offense by not realizing this. You are missing the point that these are big offenses and society deals w/ ppl who commit these offenses in the most unfortunate way-honor killings. To put your agenda in relations to this issue that sin is subjective (I think if you read the Bible you will change that belief or not believe in the Bible since it does not suit your belief, I hope for the former) is not realistic when it comes to Muslim society. Please, leave your subjectiveness out of this. It will do no good.

For example...hmm. Let's use an example of ..honor killings! SInce you believe in this subjective stuff than why are you so concerned about honor killings. For some honor killings are good, for others it is bad. It's all subjective, so why bother w/ it? Hey, I guess rape, murder, adultery, fornication, homosexuality, incest...they are all subjective (even if our religions gives us clear and direct messages about this). They are neither good nor bad. WHy bother w/ it? Let's alljust midn our own business b/c it is all SUBJECTIVE!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean.~
Papillion has articulated herself on this honour killings subject matter masterfully several times now, and I (as you may deduce from earlier posts) am in complete agreement with her.


I just wanted to add, however, that the "sins" you mention are not considered as such by man. Morality is subjective, and not everyone shares your particular brand.

I know many gay posters here (and I'm sure there are many) would find your position offensive. Bottom line here is that morality is subjective & there is no universal moral code.
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  #95  
Old 08-03-2005, 02:02 PM
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i agree reina - morality is not subjective...if it was, we wouldn't be having this conversation.
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  #96  
Old 08-03-2005, 02:38 PM
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Thank you. I did not see this discussion going the way it did. I hope it can stay on the topic of honor killings. I hope...I really don't want to argue. In fact sine I really don't know that much about honor killings maybe I should just stay out of it. I was just trying to understand it more, not argue about sin and morality.
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  #97  
Old 08-03-2005, 04:07 PM
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As a Christian and b/c of my own consciousness, I myself do consider those "sins" sin and I am not ashamed to say that.
That's fine, but in my opinion, I don't think your moral position on such contentious issues is appropriate here (take it to a religious forum if you must), but that is for the moderators and administrators to decide. That you catagorize a large segment of society as sinners, will, no doubt, be offensive to many. That was my point. And not all Christians are against homosexuality or pre-marital sex, etc. Many churches accept homosexuality, and have gay ministers, preform gay weddings, etc. Thus your position as homosexuality as a sin is *subjective* and is based on your interpretation of the Bible. It is_ not_ a position shared by all Christians.

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Furthermore, Muslims consider these sins and it is a serious offense to them. This is what I am talking about looking at this issue the way they are. Homosexuality, fornication, adultery, etc. are big offenses in Islam (and CHristianity). They are not tolerated in society (like it is in the West) and so I choose to respect their beliefs (of course not of honor killings, but to take in light the fact that they consider those sins). I think you are committing the bigger offense by not realizing this. You are missing the point that these are big offenses and society deals w/ ppl who commit these offenses in the most unfortunate way-honor killings. To put your agenda in relations to this issue that sin is subjective (I think if you read the Bible you will change that belief or not believe in the Bible since it does not suit your belief, I hope for the former) is not realistic when it comes to Muslim society. Please, leave your subjectiveness out of this. It will do no good.
It will do no good? I'm not sure what you mean.You're pushing your religious beliefs on to others, and I find that offensive. Yes, I have read the Bible, and no I am not a Christian, although I am religious. None of this, however, is pertinent to the discussion. And I'm not "missing the point" (see below). I agree with you that honour killings are an unforunate way of punishing individuals who have ostensibly broken the *subjective* moral code of others.

Quote:
For example...hmm. Let's use an example of ..honor killings! SInce you believe in this subjective stuff than why are you so concerned about honor killings. For some honor killings are good, for others it is bad. It's all subjective, so why bother w/ it? Hey, I guess rape, murder, adultery, fornication, homosexuality, incest...they are all subjective (even if our religions gives us clear and direct messages about this). They are neither good nor bad. WHy bother w/ it? Let's alljust midn our own business b/c it is all SUBJECTIVE!!!


You're missing the point, and are being a little silly. Having a relationship with someone of the same-sex or engaging in pre-marital sex or whatever are *moral* issues. Killing someone because they engage in such behaviour (whether in reality or perception) is a legal/crimial issue (not to mention barbaric). And I think most people with their faculties will agree that things like non-consensual-sex or sex with a minor (who is not mentally developed enough to the give the proper consent) are criminal acts,so your mentioning them for dramatical effect is unwarranted.


Morality, justice, and law -- although related -- are different. Morality is only concerned with questions of right and wrong, good and evil. It is vague, and relative, and dependent on the *subjective* views of individuals. Indeed, all over the world it is increasingly difficult to find a shared moral code by all people. Thus morality is an uncertain & arbitrary method of regulating/governing societies.This is why the condoning of honour killings is wrong.

Having different positions on moral issues -- abortion, same-sex relationships, pre-marital sex, etc. should not be punishable by law (hence my opposition to honour killings). There are many areas of morality where differences have to be respected and tolerated if a free society is to be considered free. Jordan (and most of the Muslim world), of course, is not a free society, but differences on moral issues will have to be tolerated if it is ever going to get there.

Conversely, law is supposed to be clearly discernable and *objective*. When law attempts to impose perceived dominant moral standards, injustices are often the result. This is what happens when what you classify as sins become punishable by the 'law' http://direland.typepad.com/direland/2005/07/iran_executes_2.html (somewhat graphic image) Is this acceptable? In a just society laws have to be promulgated (this is where Abdullah comes in) and applied (this is where his appointed judges come in) in a just manner. Justice requires decision makers to choose rationally from among conflicting choices. Moreover, it requires that individuals in a dispute receive a fair hearing using fair procedures, with the result being determined by appropriate principles. As the phenomenon of honour killings and killing of alleged homosexuals demostrates, this is often missing in societies where the morals standards of dominant groups are applied to others.
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  #98  
Old 08-03-2005, 04:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reina
Thank you. I did not see this discussion going the way it did. I hope it can stay on the topic of honor killings. I hope...I really don't want to argue. In fact sine I really don't know that much about honor killings maybe I should just stay out of it. I was just trying to understand it more, not argue about sin and morality.
Don't think I'm coming down on you, because I'm not. We just have a difference of opinion. I think discussion is healthy :) Moreover, you mentioned your moral beliefs in relation to the topic in your post and thus opened it up to debate and discussion. In any case, notions of what constitutes sin, morality, and honour killings,are all related.
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  #99  
Old 08-03-2005, 04:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madonna23
i agree reina - morality is not subjective...if it was, we wouldn't be having this conversation.
It is subjective insofar as different people will have different opinions of what is moral and immoral. Some think honour killings are moral & the actions leading to them immoral, while others will think the opposite. My argument is that law and justice need to be separated from morality.
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  #100  
Old 08-03-2005, 05:55 PM
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"The thing is is that you have to look at it the way the the ppl who commit the human rights violations see it. If they see it as a religious, societal/cultural, whatever way of handling things than that is the way I see it. ANd so one has to be a bit more realistic and see it through their eyes. "

That's like saying the Holocaust was ok becuase from a cultural point of view the German people thouight it was right.
There is NO justification for these so-called honour killings. There is no honour in them, the sooner people wake up and realise that the better!

"Britain isn't a country it is a Continent "
Britian is not a continent, Europe is a continent.

"ONE CAN UNDERSTAND IT IF ONE WERE A MEMBER OF THE FAMILY FACED WITH SUCH DIRE CIRCUMSTANCES, "
There are no such circumstances, making excuses is tantamount ot justification.

"Shari'ah's stance "
What is the Qur'an's stance? I'm still waiting for your answer, which you choose to ignore.
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