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  #41  
Old 06-18-2005, 07:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nilah
Why are you so sure of it? Do you work for the silly American government?
It's my line of work, and no I don't work for the government.
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  #42  
Old 07-04-2005, 06:48 AM
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Today I read in newspapers that Ms. Leena the founder of an organization for supporting women's right in Jordan has said that 25% (1 out of 4)of women with university degrees have experienced being hit by their husbands,and 74% of girls(unmarried and under 30)have been hit at least one time by male members of their family.as far as this incidence of being hit is so high in Jordan if there's been something done with empowerment of women,what was the previuos rate?
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  #43  
Old 07-07-2005, 09:22 PM
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Originally Posted by papillon
I guess I still don't understand why KA can't change by royal decree the penal codes in Jordan to be consistent with the Constitution (which provides for gender equality), see what kinds of sentences are then handed down to the killers, and, if they remain far too lenient, issue another royal decree with mandatory sentencing guidelines. It seems to me a way of making mere words of support to the women of the country have actual backing from the very top. The fact that KA or other members of the JRF who have clout haven't done more makes me think they really don't think these crimes are so awful.
I think this is exactly part of my problem with Abdullah as King. He seems to say one thing with his mouth but does something else entirely with his actions. On the one hand he speaks of equality and the sanctity of life for all Jordanians yet he seems to turn a blind eye to atrocities that are taking place right in front of him.

As I've read that Rania has spoken out against honour killings, how is it that she is not able to influence her husband more to take legal action against those who carry out such horrors? Or is it just another case of Rania doing as her husband does in that she speaks about the horrors of honour killings and rallies against them to the appropriate groups but when she goes back to Jordan doesn't give the matter further thought?

It's very disappointing to me that this particular King and Queen who have more power than all of the other European Kings and Queens does so little with their power to attempt to effect change within their country. There is so much potential they could do within Jordan as well as on the world stage to better the lives of Jordanians yet they come off as rather shallow, superficial individuals who can talk the talk but not walk the walk.
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  #44  
Old 07-07-2005, 09:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Genevieve
I think this is exactly part of my problem with Abdullah as King. He seems to say one thing with his mouth but does something else entirely with his actions. On the one hand he speaks of equality and the sanctity of life for all Jordanians yet he seems to turn a blind eye to atrocities that are taking place right in front of him.
So true. He does this on a broad spectrum of issues, unfortunately, not just "honor" killings.

Quote:
As I've read that Rania has spoken out against honour killings, how is it that she is not able to influence her husband more to take legal action against those who carry out such horrors? Or is it just another case of Rania doing as her husband does in that she speaks about the horrors of honour killings and rallies against them to the appropriate groups but when she goes back to Jordan doesn't give the matter further thought?
KA himself has spoken out against them, which makes the current situation even more puzzling. As an absolute ruler who opposes "honor" killings, isn't he the one person in the country who's in the best position to align the penal code articles with the constitution and the 17 different international human rights conventions on which Jordan is a signatory?! Why doesn't the constitution trump the penal code articles, and why aren't the offending penal code articles overturned on the basis of being unconstitutional? Obviously, as Sean long ago pointed out, there is a lack of political will. Something about the status quo benefits KA and QR, and that's why they talk but don't act against these human rights violations.

Quote:
It's very disappointing to me that this particular King and Queen who have more power than all of the other European Kings and Queens does so little with their power to attempt to effect change within their country. There is so much potential they could do within Jordan as well as on the world stage to better the lives of Jordanians yet they come off as rather shallow, superficial individuals who can talk the talk but not walk the walk.
I concur. There are so many missed opportunities, opportunities that could be life changing, even life saving, for so many. :(
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  #45  
Old 07-07-2005, 09:59 PM
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Originally Posted by papillon
KA himself has spoken out against them, which makes the current situation even more puzzling. As an absolute ruler who opposes "honor" killings, isn't he the one person in the country who's in the best position to align the penal code articles with the constitution and the 17 different international human rights conventions on which Jordan is a signatory?! Why doesn't the constitution trump the penal code articles, and why aren't the offending penal code articles overturned on the basis of being unconstitutional? Obviously, as Sean long ago pointed out, there is a lack of political will. Something about the status quo benefits KA and QR, and that's why they talk but don't act against these human rights violations.
I never realized that even Abdullah himself has spoken out against honour killings. I thought it had only been Rania. It does make the situation rather puzzling doesn't it?

It's a good thing that Abdullah isn't an elected official as he wouldn't stay in office very long.

It is obvious that Abdullah and Rania modify their agendas and beliefs according to the audience whom they are addressing, and most politicians do, but honour killings seems like a rather major and significant issue to be waffling back and forth on. To me it implies that they are both playing two sides of the fence to further their own agendas rather than an agenda for the greater good.

What I don't understand is what they gain by not being against honour killings. It seems like a pretty cut and dry situation to me: honour killings are bad, therefore don't support them and act to institute laws that properly address and punish those who carry them out. It's not a matter to me of being pro choice or against abortion as such a matter is based on several levels including religious and scientific. Honour killings just seem innately unjust and horrific and therefore those who perform such terrible acts should be swiftly punished.
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  #46  
Old 07-07-2005, 10:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Genevieve
It's a good thing that Abdullah isn't an elected official as he wouldn't stay in office very long.
I sincerely doubt he would even be in the position he is in in the first place if that were an elected office.

Quote:
What I don't understand is what they gain by not being against honour killings. It seems like a pretty cut and dry situation to me: honour killings are bad, therefore don't support them and act to institute laws that properly address and punish those who carry them out. It's not a matter to me of being pro choice or against abortion as such a matter is based on several levels including religious and scientific. Honour killings just seem innately unjust and horrific and therefore those who perform such terrible acts should be swiftly punished.
I share your thinking on this, Genevieve. "Honor" killings are believed to have their origins in misinterpretations of ancient tribal codes. KA needs the support of the tribes to maintain his position and control of Jordan, so he is willing to sacrifice the innocent victims of "honor" killings on an ongoing basis to achieve his own ends. He lacks moral courage and political will. And when he and QR are speaking out against these crimes in the West, they are counting on few people knowing enough about Jordan to realize that KA--by himself, if need be--is in a position to overturn the three penal code articles that allow these crimes to go virtually unpunished. :(
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  #47  
Old 07-07-2005, 10:18 PM
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Originally Posted by papillon
He lacks moral courage and political will. And when he and QR are speaking out against these crimes in the West, they are counting on few people knowing enough about Jordan to realize that KA--by himself, if need be--is in a position to overturn the three penal code articles that allow these crimes to go virtually unpunished. :(
I wonder who is to blame then? Abdullah for not having the moral courage and the political will to put aside his personal need for power to save and protect the lives of his fellow citizens, even if it is at his own expense to lose the support of the tribes, or the people in the West who are so blinded by Abdullah and Rania's royal status and glamour that they don't really take the time to learn about such practices and to call these two for they are, for talking things up but failing to take action when they could.
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  #48  
Old 07-07-2005, 10:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Genevieve
I wonder who is to blame then? Abdullah for not having the moral courage and the political will to put aside his personal need for power to save and protect the lives of his fellow citizens, even if it is at his own expense to lose the support of the tribes, or the people in the West who are so blinded by Abdullah and Rania's royal status and glamour that they don't really take the time to learn about such practices and to call these two for they are, for talking things up but failing to take action when they could.
In my opinion, the West is complicit through its ignorance, but this is a very complicated issue, one that few in the West have even heard about. People can't be expected to know everything about everything in the world. In the end, KA, as absolute monarch, is most accountable for the present situation, for he is in a singular position to change it.
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  #49  
Old 07-08-2005, 09:20 AM
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what should KA do specifically with honor killings?arent there any punishment for murderers?
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  #50  
Old 07-08-2005, 11:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cute_girl
what should KA do specifically with honor killings?arent there any punishment for murderers?
If a so-called honor killing is seen by the court as premeditated, the act is increasingly seen as murder in Jordan and is punished, but if a killer committed his crime "in a fit of fury" caused by a "unlawful act of the victim", this is still regarded by the penal code as extenuating circumstances and he is only sentenced to about two years in prison.
In the Jordan Times of today there is a report about two different cases of honor killings and two different sentences: two brothers were given jail terms of seven-and-a-half and 10 years for the premeditated killing of their sister, while a husband got only two years for killing his wife whom he believed unfaithful "in a fit of fury".

www.jordantimes.com/fri/homenews/homenews10.htm
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  #51  
Old 07-08-2005, 03:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cute_girl
what should KA do specifically with honor killings?arent there any punishment for murderers?
If you go back and read the preceding posts, there's a decent discussion from the good ol' days of what KA could be doing.

The average sentence for "honor" killings in Jordan is six months. Time spent out on bail awaiting trial counts against this, though, so few of the perpetrators actually serve any time in jail. This will probably continue to be the case as long as Penal Code Articles 97, 98, and 340 remain on the books (especially Article 98).

Premeditated murders are and have long been punished as murders, but "honor" killings fall under the lenient penal code articles, so they are treated differently.
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  #52  
Old 07-30-2005, 10:23 PM
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This is Nothing to do with the Afore, it is to do with what is in the reliigon of Islam. What fails to be understood that this is an Islamic Society that prizes a girls Virginity. In Islam Male and female Muslims are forbidden from having sexual intercourse until they legally (in a Masjid) Marry. If a Muslim keeps themselves until they are married and chastein their Souse's abscence they are deemed to have honour. Also they are deemed to be pious by Allah. Promiscuity isn't deemed to be respectible within Islam.

Therefore as the occurance in Jordan has happened, that if a Male and Female go against their religion and date and have sexual relations outside of the bonds of Marriage, they have by Islamic terms have dishonoured themselves and their families. Although there have been double standards as regards the male participants at times. However the Law stands. Hence If a Female has gone against her religion dated and had sexual relations beyond the bounds of Marriage, she has also dihonoured her entire family. Society will think that they are encouragin her to behave like a permiscuous person. Finally, If the Family discover this, by killing her they deem that they remove the stain of dishonour. Also dishonourment of this kind unless otherwise stated, in an Islamic Society means that one or Family are perminently destitute and excommunicated from society. even if they were rich to begin with. Also Allah states the those whom have not kept themselves until they were married and remained chases in their spouses absence, they will face a terrible punishment on the Day of Judgement. If they remain unrepentant and do not endeavour to be chaste. Hence it states in Islam, that if you are single, provided that there aren't extenuating circumstances, A Muslim Male and Female MUST marry immediately, in order to avoid the aforesaid (inc if Illegitamate Children were born, thye would have no rights as they were not claimed by their Fathers. As is the same in the West that, if a Child is born out of Wedlock, their Fathers aren't legaly obliged, not bound to pay maintenance to the Child.) and to be Divinely blessed by Allah S.W.T. Islam holds the santity of Marriage at the forefront of Islamic Society after Allah S.W.T.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Genevieve
I wonder who is to blame then? Abdullah for not having the moral courage and the political will to put aside his personal need for power to save and protect the lives of his fellow citizens, even if it is at his own expense to lose the support of the tribes, or the people in the West who are so blinded by Abdullah and Rania's royal status and glamour that they don't really take the time to learn about such practices and to call these two for they are, for talking things up but failing to take action when they could.
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  #53  
Old 07-31-2005, 12:26 AM
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Actually in the West a father defintely has to pay to maintain the child. It is called child support and it is strictly enforced (just ask Batman who visited Buckingham Palace)
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  #54  
Old 07-31-2005, 12:33 AM
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Personally I just don't see a solution to this problem. But I certainly believe that it is not something that the West can truly make a differnce, except for those who come over here from countries wher ehonor killings are prevalent and commit those crimes (and you can bet it happens and it does not receive the proper attention. So I guess if the West focused on it that way than maybe the issue would get mor attention and thus affect what is happening wher ethis stuff originates. Now as far as KA, I don't see him nor Rania doing much about this. He has enough opposition from the tribes. H eprobably can't afford more. TO radically confront honor killings, would totally affect the monarchies. Maybe the imams could do something.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Genevieve
I wonder who is to blame then? Abdullah for not having the moral courage and the political will to put aside his personal need for power to save and protect the lives of his fellow citizens, even if it is at his own expense to lose the support of the tribes, or the people in the West who are so blinded by Abdullah and Rania's royal status and glamour that they don't really take the time to learn about such practices and to call these two for they are, for talking things up but failing to take action when they could.
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  #55  
Old 07-31-2005, 11:32 PM
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Since the premise is Allah will be taking care of those who do not follow his laws on judgement day, does it not defy his powers by taking his "laws" and assurance he will take care of those not following them into a human being's hands and killing someone else? I would think this would be far more sacriligeous as it seeks to place oneself as the arbiter of what is just. I don't understand the rationale here but, then again, I don't see any honor in murder.

Nope, have to agree this is a no brainer. Murder, in anyone's name, is wrong. KA and others in power in the ME may have to stand up to those who are conducting "honor killings." But change must begin somewhere. If not now, when? I can't believe anyone within these Forums truly thinks this is a good thing and I am optimistic enough to hope others will not simply be content with saying "nothing can be done" and leave it at that. I sincerely hope a leader with moral courage will emerge and bring about needed reforms.

Oh, and I know all about "customs." But just because something is a "custom" does not in and of itself make it tolerable. The world is full of stories about horrid, senseless "customs" which mercifully have been taken on and overturned by those who can discern and support "right" from eggregious wrong.
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  #56  
Old 08-01-2005, 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Laila
She is interested in what is called small projects, and people involved in these projects are not the women who can't work out because there husbands won't let them to do, but for poor families with small budgets to start a small project at home or with a group of people.

is that good or not? yes and no, for those poor people it can be useful, but on the long term Jordan economy can not be improved by the small projects, it requires a huge projects that can employ a large number of people.

It seems that there is no coordination between her and KA who is interested in large projects of computer industries and others which depends on the foreign investors so its contribution to jordan economy is minimal, they should both understand that the true development need large projects with patriot investments.
Too true, She's Not Queen Noor and she's to whispy to take on major projects. No offence meant.
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  #57  
Old 08-01-2005, 12:48 PM
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Originally Posted by bluetortuga
Don't be surprised if K. Abdullah pulls a second wife into the spotlight out of nowhere. There are rumors flying around that he may marry either a Saudi or Emirati princess. but then, I've been hearing these things for years and nothing has ever happened.
True, but at times Rania went beyond her bounds and her husband had to clean up the mess and appologise. So she'll have to watch it :) . No offence Meant
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  #58  
Old 08-01-2005, 01:31 PM
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The problem with honour killings is that you're not just dealing with a horrible crime but a whole mindset.
The fact is there are too many people out there that think a woman should be murdered for her misdemeanours while the man is left unpunished. It's not just a Jordanian problem or a muslim problem but is one that will take years to eliminate becuase it involves changing the very way people think and the beliefs they hold.
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  #59  
Old 08-01-2005, 03:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Roshanah
Too true, She's Not Queen Noor and she's to whispy to take on major projects. No offence meant.

Hello Roshanah, welcome to TRF. I agree Rania isn't QN, she (Rania) is her own individual person, just like QN, and they shouldn't be compared to one another. I changed this because I don't want anyone misinterpreting my post.
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  #60  
Old 08-01-2005, 03:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Roshanah
True, but at times Rania went beyond her bounds and her husband had to clean up the mess and appologise. So she'll have to watch it :) . No offence Meant

When did Rania go beyond her bounds, and KA had to clean up her mess? This is new to me. Would you care to elaborate?
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