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  #21  
Old 05-08-2004, 01:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by papillon@May 7th, 2004 - 11:35 pm
Thanks, Wymanda.* Yes, I know it's partly a cultural thing, which the JRF cannot necessarily control.* But in terms of the legal codes that permit these crimes to go virtually unpunished, KA could overturn them by royal decree if he wants.* It wouldn't stop the murders, but it would allow the murderers to be punished.* It's a start, and it would send a very strong message to the people that the JRF really DOES abhor these practices and is willing to put its power behind its words.* Life or death. . .it seems like one of the more worthy causes to stick one's neck out for.
They could start by making them illegal.

Another poster mentioned the Parliament. However, Parliament (when there is one) is subordinate to the King, and the PM is apppointed. Moreover, the system and electoral laws are set-up in such a way that they favour tribal leaders, who in turn vote the way the RF wants them to. Quid pro quo.
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  #22  
Old 05-08-2004, 06:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by papillon@May 8th, 2004 - 12:35 pm
KA could overturn them by royal decree if he wants. It wouldn't stop the murders, but it would allow the murderers to be punished.
Yes, but would they be punished?

As I said you have a judiciary made up soley of men. It would be unlikely that they would hand down sentences to fit the crime. Most of them probably condone what these animals do.

The only alternative would be for KA to intervene and become lawmaker and Judge. This defeats the whole three arms of government scenario.

* Legislative
* Judicial
* Enforcement (Police)

Is KA to be all three rolled up into one man? I thought that was called a Dictator!
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  #23  
Old 05-08-2004, 01:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by wymanda+May 8th, 2004 - 5:41 am--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (wymanda &#064; May 8th, 2004 - 5:41 am)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-papillon@May 8th, 2004 - 12:35 pm
KA could overturn them by royal decree if he wants.* It wouldn&#39;t stop the murders, but it would allow the murderers to be punished.
[/b][/quote]
Um, why not? People are often punished by the regime (headed by the king, by th way) for comitting_no_ crime other than speaking out (sometimes against the RF). Making the act illegal is certainly a start. You can&#39;t expect people to comply with a law that doesn&#39;t exist. Moreover, and perhaps more importantly, by making it illegal, they will at least send a message and be able to socialize the younger generation appropriately.

A more likely reason might be because that the killings tend to be conducted in tribal areas outside the city, and the RF is weary of alienating tribal leaders because that is the base of its support.


Quote:
As I said you have a judiciary made up soley of men.
I&#39;m sorry, you&#39;re wrong, and to me at least, it seems you have a distorted image of Jordan and the actual power of the RF. Indeed, make no mistake, the King is the one with the power in the country. Anyway, *there* are female judges (at last count 19 of them), and over 1000 female practiding femal lawyers. So it is not solely the domain of men.

Quote:
It would be unlikely that they would hand down sentences to fit the crime. Most of them probably condone what these animals do.
Personally, I&#39;m astonished that you can that with such certainty. I may be mistaken, but your comment seems a litle ethnocentric to me. The judiciary is comprised of educated, trained individuals, not village parochials, and in theory, is independent. However, there is often interference by the executive branch (which is headed by the King). Moreover, the Judicial High Council (which appoints, promotes, and disciplines judges), is appointed by the King, as is the country&#39;s top Judge (who serves in the appeal court). All judges are appointed by royal decree.
Certainly you&#39;re not saying that the King appoints people who condone honour killings? Furthermore, all judicial reform/development are instigated by the royal court, with the King being deeply involved (as was the case in 1999-2000).

Quote:
The only alternative would be for KA to intervene and become lawmaker and Judge. This defeats the whole three arms of government scenario.

* Legislative
* Judicial
* Enforcement (Police)

Is KA to be all three rolled up into one man? I thought that was called a Dictator&#33;
Um, he already does intervene. Heavily. Moreover, the executive branch *does* promulgate legislation, the King dismisses parliament at will (for years), he appoints the senate (with loyalists), apppoints the government, approves or rejects all laws, is involved in the judicial system (see above), and is involved in enforcement (ie those who publicly speak out against the regime are punished).

:flower:
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  #24  
Old 05-08-2004, 03:00 PM
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Sean, I see that you are understanding my point. In effect, KA is a dictator, as unpleasant as that word is to many of us. Jordan is not at all a democracy, so the three branches of government do not provide the checks and balances that we see in democratic nations. I guess I still don&#39;t understand why KA can&#39;t change by royal decree the penal codes in Jordan to be consistent with the Constitution (which provides for gender equality), see what kinds of sentences are then handed down to the killers, and, if they remain far too lenient, issue another royal decree with mandatory sentencing guidelines. It seems to me a way of making mere words of support to the women of the country have actual backing from the very top. The fact that KA or other members of the JRF who have clout haven&#39;t done more makes me think they really don&#39;t think these crimes are so awful.

But, Sean, your point about maintaining good relations with the tribal leaders is insightful to me. That could be the missing ingredient for me, perhaps explaining why no actions have been taken. Thanks.
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  #25  
Old 05-08-2004, 03:55 PM
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Quote:
Sean, I see that you are understanding my point.* In effect, KA is a dictator, as unpleasant as that word is to many of us.* Jordan is not at all a democracy, so the three branches of government do not provide the checks and balances that we see in democratic nations.
Hi Papillion.

Of course I see your point&#33; :) I&#39;ve written about the ME here extensively. We&#39;re on the same page.

Quote:

But, Sean, your point about maintaining good relations with the tribal leaders is insightful to me.* That could be the missing ingredient for me, perhaps explaining why no actions have been taken.* Thanks.
Anyway, tribal relations is, in fact, the missing ingredient. Tribal (Bedioun) support is very important to the Hashemites. It helps keep them in power, especially since there isn&#39;t any love loss between the RF and the Palestinian majority. That&#39;s why the country&#39;s electoral areas favour rural areas over urban ones.

Quote:
I guess I still don&#39;t understand why KA can&#39;t change by royal decree the penal codes in Jordan to be consistent with the Constitution (which provides for gender equality), see what kinds of sentences are then handed down to the killers, and, if they remain far too lenient, issue another royal decree with mandatory sentencing guidelines.* It seems to me a way of making mere words of support to the women of the country have actual backing from the very top.*

It&#39;s obvious you&#39;re familiar with Jordan&#39;s political system. IMO, such a change is the fundamental first step in changing attitudes within society. One would think it would be a relatively easy for an authoritarian leader to make the necessary changes. However, in this case, the political will is lacking.

Indeed, even in democracies, where governments _are _actually accountable to the electorate, the executive branch often has to take the &#39;bull by the horns&#39; and pass (sometimes unpopular) legislation that protect the rights of the minority and/ or traditionally marginalized groups (look at the Indian constitution) from the tyranny of the majority regardless of the political fall-out.

Going around talking to religious leaders etc. like Rania does , isn&#39;t going to change much, IMO. Particularly since the RF has no moral authority with Islamists. After all, these are the same people the regime persecutes and marginalizes (giving rise to more radicalism) with impunity.
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  #26  
Old 05-08-2004, 04:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sean.~@May 8th, 2004 - 2:55 pm
Quote:
One would think it would be a relatively easy for an authoritarian leader to make the necessary changes. However, in this case, the political will is lacking.

Indeed, even in democracies, where governments are actually accountable to the electorate, the executive branch often has to take the &#39;bull by the horns&#39; and pass (sometimes unpopular) legislation that protect the rights of the minority and/ or traditionally marginalized groups (look at the Indian constitution) from the tyranny of the majority regardless of the political fall-out.
My observation, exactly. All the words spoken against these crimes by the JRF ring hollow, once one realizes the power they have to change things.

Yes. That&#39;s why it&#39;s not called followership, but leadership&#33;
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  #27  
Old 05-09-2004, 03:44 AM
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Quote:
A more likely reason might be because that the killings tend to be conducted in tribal areas outside the city,
are you sure? I notice that the crimes happens more in the cities, as there are poor places there and hetrogeneous mix of people while rural areas are more homogeneous, conservative and abiding by relegion. I could not find any sources about the geograhical distribution of these crimes, do you have any?

Quote:
and the RF is weary of alienating tribal leaders because that is the base of its support.
I remember that the tribal leaders participated in protesting law 340 of honor killing and they said that it is againest the Arab morals. while the lawyers are who supported the law.
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  #28  
Old 05-09-2004, 05:50 AM
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Quote:
are you sure? I notice that the crimes happens more in the cities, as there are poor places there and hetrogeneous mix of people while rural areas are more homogeneous, conservative and abiding by relegion. I could not find any sources about the geograhical distribution of these crimes, do you have any?

Yes, I&#39;m pretty sure. This isn&#39;t to say that honour killingts don&#39;t happen in the city as well (or are you referring to crime in general?), paticularly among the lower socio economic strata and the uneducated. But it is the rural areas that tend to be more conservative and tribal, and thus more concerned with things like "honour". I do have statistics somewhere, and I can look for them. Anwar Syed had written a good analysis on the phenomenon. I will try and find the link for you. In the meantime, here is one news story/example on the subject.

news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1778891.stm


Quote:
remember that the tribal leaders participated in protesting law 340 of honor killing and they said that it is againest the Arab morals. while the lawyers are who supported the law.
*Some* tribal leaders protested. And I don&#39;t think all lawyers supported the article. For those who don&#39;t know, article 340 states that:

&#39;.A husband or a close blood relative who kills a woman caught in a situation highly suspicious of adultery will be totally exempt from sentencing.&#39;

Btw, is it just me or are there lots of laila&#39;s on this board (same name, different spelling)? It&#39;s hard to keep track of who is who&#33;&#33; :flower:
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  #29  
Old 05-09-2004, 06:23 AM
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Quote:

Btw, is it just me or are there lots of laila&#39;s on this board (same name, different spelling)?
there is "layla" too.
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  #30  
Old 05-16-2004, 12:10 AM
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Getting back to the original question of what&#39;s happened to QR&#39;s empowerment of women, one question I have is how can she really be effective when she stretches herself so thin over so many complex issues, both domestic and international? Does she delegate the actual work on these issues to her staff, then just do the site visits, speeches, and events herself? Given that all of us have only 24 hours in each day, and she has not only her official duties, but also her roles as wife and mother to look after, it just doesn&#39;t seem possible from a purely mathematical view for her to give each of her "causes" much personal attention. If it doesn&#39;t seem like she&#39;s made much progress on the empowerment issue, I would suppose it&#39;s in part because she isn&#39;t really able to focus much of her time and effort on it.

Anyone else ever wonder what the actual commitment level is to all these causes she presumably supports?
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  #31  
Old 03-27-2005, 07:50 PM
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I have re-opened this thread although the poll is now void; please disregard the poll results.

Perhaps the discussion in this thread can be carried on however.

Please keep in mind our Forum Posting Rules & Guidelines and express your opinons politely and civily.

Alexandria
Royal Forums Administrator
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  #32  
Old 03-27-2005, 09:40 PM
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Empowerment of women....who comes up with these ("cute") terms?
But in regards to honor killings...I think the JRF has done about all it can with that. There are just way too many underlying issues with that. Also I guess QR does alot with the microfinance initiatives. However I think the definition of empowerment of women is totally different from the west's definition of that term. Just look at the JRF, alot of the women have more advanced degrees, are smarter, and probably more capable of leading jordan than the men, but yet they are stuck with issues dealing with women, children, and other stuff that is limited and boring. So I really don't like these terms such as empowerment of women cuz in the end the women will be more stifled than the men.
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  #33  
Old 03-27-2005, 10:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reina
But in regards to honor killings...I think the JRF has done about all it can with that.
I'm sorry, I have studied this issue for going on two years now, and I just cannot agree with you about this. I think Sean hit it on the head when he said there is a lack of political will. KA needs tribal support to stay in power, and "honor" killings have their origins, it is believed, in misinterpretations of tribal code. So there is much he could do, but he is fearful of risking their ire. Meanwhile, people--mostly women--continue to be murdered with relative impunity.
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  #34  
Old 03-27-2005, 10:32 PM
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At what rate are they being killed. Is this quite frequent or is it a sporadic occurence? Also are there any other countries (specifically in the ME) that do honor killings?
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  #35  
Old 03-27-2005, 10:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reina
At what rate are they being killed. Is this quite frequent or is it a sporadic occurence? Also are there any other countries (specifically in the ME) that do honor killings?
On a per capita basis, Jordan has one of the highest rates of "honor" killings in the world. The exact numbers are unknown because it is believed many of them are unreported or disguised as suicides. Each year, The Jordan Times reports about 20 to 25 "honor" killings, though some estimates are over 100. I have even seen one estimate as high as 2,500 (for both Jordan and The Palestinian Territories), though that source, Norma Khouri, has been largely discredited, not specifically on this count, but on other "facts" she has alleged. In 2004, The Jordan Times reported 20 "honor" killings, two of which were men. These crimes are committed throughout the world, but are most prevalent in the ME.
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  #36  
Old 03-27-2005, 10:57 PM
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Ah. So I guess it is really serious. (Sorry to sound a bit ignorant.)
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  #37  
Old 03-27-2005, 11:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reina
Ah. So I guess it is really serious. (Sorry to sound a bit ignorant.)
No, you asked some good questions. The other thing to remember is that it's not just the murdered people, their families, and their loved ones who suffer. Because these crimes are committed sometimes quite spontaneously and with such unbelievable violence (the women are typically hacked to death or stabbed 20 times or set on fire or something else truly, hideously violent), even many women who are never killed this way live under an umbrella of fear that they can be or will be. So it's a sad, sad situation.
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  #38  
Old 06-18-2005, 06:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by papillon
I'm sorry, I have studied this issue for going on two years now, and I just cannot agree with you about this. I think Sean hit it on the head when he said there is a lack of political will. KA needs tribal support to stay in power, and "honor" killings have their origins, it is believed, in misinterpretations of tribal code. So there is much he could do, but he is fearful of risking their ire. Meanwhile, people--mostly women--continue to be murdered with relative impunity.
Hi papillon, just wondering...were you working in the regions as a aid person?
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  #39  
Old 06-18-2005, 06:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by julial
Hi papillon, just wondering...were you working in the regions as a aid person?
I've worked in Jordan twice now. The first time it was in the area of economic development/aid for Jordanians; the second time I was working as a subject-matter expert in training for Iraqis (because, with the war, it was too dangerous to do so in Iraq). But, yes, both times it was somehow connected with aid and development.
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  #40  
Old 06-18-2005, 07:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by papillon
I'm sorry, I have studied this issue for going on two years now, and I just cannot agree with you about this. I think Sean hit it on the head when he said there is a lack of political will. KA needs tribal support to stay in power, and "honor" killings have their origins, it is believed, in misinterpretations of tribal code. So there is much he could do, but he is fearful of risking their ire. Meanwhile, people--mostly women--continue to be murdered with relative impunity.

Why are you so sure of it? Do you work for the silly American government?
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