What happened to Rania's empowerment of women?

[Roshanah]

Originally Posted by maryshawn

Since the premise is Allah will be taking care of those who do not follow his laws on judgement day, does it not defy his powers by taking his "laws" and assurance he will take care of those not following them into a human being's hands and killing someone else? I would think this would be far more sacriligeous as it seeks to place oneself as the arbiter of what is just. I don't understand the rationale here but, then again, I don't see any honor in murder.

Nope, have to agree this is a no brainer. Murder, in anyone's name, is wrong. KA and others in power in the ME may have to stand up to those who are conducting "honor killings." But change must begin somewhere. If not now, when? I can't believe anyone within these Forums truly thinks this is a good thing and I am optimistic enough to hope others will not simply be content with saying "nothing can be done" and leave it at that. I sincerely hope a leader with moral courage will emerge and bring about needed reforms.

Oh, and I know all about "customs." But just because something is a "custom" does not in and of itself make it tolerable. The world is full of stories about horrid, senseless "customs" which mercifully have been taken on and overturned by those who can discern and support "right" from eggregious wrong.

What I meant was that Honour Kilings originate from the premise that If a Muslim (although at times the male has been unpunished) has conducted sexual relations outside of Marriage, in Islam this is seen a a major sin aka Haram act. In the East the act can actually shame a family and place them into perminent destitution. That's how it is. No offence meant. I'm not saying that I agree with the extremes that some of them have gone to, but one has to realise that in a place where there isn't a welfare infrustructure as is in the West, if they loose their good name that's it for them not just destitution but in certain past cases is has been worse. Murder OBVIOUSLY is dishonourable, but what you have to understand is that in CERTAIN cases a girl has robbed her family of their good name due to her unguarded behaviour. As such certian families have suffered by ways I cannot explain.

I never said that what is customery is tollerable, I'm merely saying that the East is founded upon a different infrsutructure and as such, change cannot be expected in the same way as it is within the West. Also, I'm not criticising the West by any means.

Finally, I must also politely point out that, If a person in the West chooses to have sexual relations outside the bonds of marriage, by legal statutes nothing comes of it. But try to imagin that your way of life, means of income and marrying in the future to a good person from a good family solely depended upon the state of one's virginity, one would view it differently.

Allah S.W.T. is most gracious, most merciful and oft forgiving indeed, but if a person breaks what is stated within the Qur'an and DOES NOT REPENT of it, only in this case Allah shan't be so to such a person (we are just referring to Muslims right now) Imagine a society based upon sex only within marriage and there was no other way to be, if one was rebellious and one paid for it by the most severe terms and one's family had to take the burden. If you were in that situation how would you feel about it then.

It's not just Islam either, Judaism has the same stance, also Mary Mother of Jesus when she was with Child the Jewish community threattend to stone her because they thought she had had sex before marriage. Even today Most Jewish families run by the same code hence they teach their children to save themselves until marriage.

It's not my saying that's the way it is, I'm saying read the Qur'an and the Torah and you'll see what I mean, if one was born into a society where such a Law exists and is upheld no matter what, one cannot expect to change the infrustructure by complely uprooting it and replacing it with another over time.

Don't twist my words and say that I think that Honour killings are fine and that's it , I'm saying sometimes (percieved rightly or wrongly) it has for some families been necessary and for others an excuse. If you don't understand what I'm saying after this than I can't say anymore about it. :) Oh and by the way the post originally was giving the background to Honour Killings and nothing more.

Oh and if you lived in Jordan like my friends do, a girl has to be a virgin when she marries (excluding if she is a divorcee or other extenuating circumstances) because if she isn't then serious matters would have arisen from it. I say again if you came from such a region you would understand. Also just because one person says it's deemed an atrocity doesn't necesssarily mean it is. ie homosexuality is deemed by monotheistic religious texts and religions to be an abomination, yet modernity and seperating the powers of church and state say to hell with it and allow it but when it suits them they claim they are of the aforementioned religions.

2nd in Oriental culture for example if a person lies to their familiy ie if they said they married when they didn't and the family made preperations etc inc publicising it to guests and then were told the truth the Parents would deem that as dishonour (even lets say it was done for a valid reason) it would be judged the same. Although some whould say the daughter or son of the family made a mistake and that's that, in Oriental culture it's seen as a LOT more than that and the Son or Daughter of the family would be excommunicated.

Pardon me for being so blunt, you come from a culture where this is not the case, and are judging the East by the standards of your culture. Not everywhere is the same, therefore the remedy to the "problems" or issues won't be the same.

As I said before in previous post No offence meant, I wonder if anyone read the no offence bit? :)

[Roshanah]

Originally Posted by Reina

Actually in the West a father defintely has to pay to maintain the child. It is called child support and it is strictly enforced (just ask Batman who visited Buckingham Palace)

That's only if the Child was born in wedlock. Have you read the notes that accompany the British Passport Application? There is where I read it. That if a Child was born OUT OF WEDLOCK then the Father isn't legally obliged to pay maintenance to the Child. The Child support Agency does enforce it but only when the Child is born within Wedlock. Speaking from personal knowledge, unless you know of a situation where there was a exception to the case.

[Roshanah]

Originally Posted by papillon

In my opinion, the West is complicit through its ignorance, but this is a very complicated issue, one that few in the West have even heard about. People can't be expected to know everything about everything in the world. In the end, KA, as absolute monarch, is most accountable for the present situation, for he is in a singular position to change it.

Well said Papillon! :) :) :)

[Roshanah]

Originally Posted by sommone

Hello Roshanah, welcome to TRF. I agree Rania isn't QN, she's her own individual person, and shouldn't be compared to anyone else.

Thank you for welcoming me Sommone! :)

[Reina]

WEll I can tell you that ain't so in the U.S. There are plenty of cases where a child is born out of wedlock and the dad has to pay child support or risk jail time. Actually it is the law.

Originally Posted by Roshanah

That's only if the Child was born in wedlock. Have you read the noted that accompany the British Passport Application? Ther is where I read it from. That if a CHild was born OUT OF WEDLOCK then the Father isn't legally obliged to pay maintenance to the Child. The CHild support Agency does enforce it but only when the Child is born within Wedlock. Speaking from personal knowlidge, unless you know of a situation where there was a exception to the case.

[Roshanah]

Originally Posted by Reina

WEll I can tell you that ain't so in the U.S. There are plenty of cases where a child is born out of wedlock and the dad has to pay child support or risk jail time. Actually it is the law.

I know it is in the USA and know of the law suit that brought it about in terms of making it law too and I respect that. :)

[maryshawn]

I agree completely. I just get tired of women bearing the brunt of these punishments......in any country or circumstance. I keep hoping some leader will step forward and take a really strong stand on the issue but am also aware that it is pragmatically difficult to balance retaining power and influence and institute meaningful reforms. But one can hope.....

I don't imply anyone here supports any of this. And I don't understand the going after the family and plunging them into poverty--so that was interesting to read. Can any leader institute meaningful change or is this truly something that is simply beyond solving? I'm starting to wonder. Battling a "mindset," as you put it so aptly, is an enormous task indeed.

Originally Posted by Little_star

The problem with honour killings is that you're not just dealing with a horrible crime but a whole mindset.
The fact is there are too many people out there that think a woman should be murdered for her misdemeanours while the man is left unpunished. It's not just a Jordanian problem or a muslim problem but is one that will take years to eliminate becuase it involves changing the very way people think and the beliefs they hold.

[maryshawn]

But can he without risking his power? How many people have this mindset in Jordan--roughly speaking? 50%, 25%.....fewer, more? I honestly don't know.

Originally Posted by Roshanah

Well said Papillon! :) :) :)

[maryshawn]

I'm not trying to judge anyone, least of all you. I don't pretend to understand honor killings; just happen to find them deplorable. And I think we all have common ground there. And, more than that, I'm wondering if change is possible? After reading about this being a "mindset," and I think it is, how does any one leader or group of them begin to change such when it is being taught at school or home? I have done a lot of thinking about this today and wonder if KA or anyone has the wherewithall to stop this or at least make it an offence which carries such serious punishment people would think twice.....Can his regime withstand such change? Which goes back to my sincere question: How many people, roughly, do we think believe/support honor killings?

Originally Posted by Roshanah

What I meant was that Honour Kilings originate from the premise that If a Muslim (although at times the male has been unpunished) has conducted sexual relations outside of Marriage, in Islam this is seen a a major sin aka Haram act. In the East the act can actually shame a family and place them into perminent destitution. That's how it is. No offence meant. I'm not saying that I agree with the extremes that some of them have gone to, but one has to realise this in a place where isn't a welfare infrustructure as in the west, if they loose their good name that's it for them not just destitution but in certain past cases is has been worse. Murder OBVIOUSLY dishonourable, but what you have to understand is that in CERTAIN cases a girl has robbed her family of their good name due to her unguarded behaviour. As such certian families have suffered by ways I cannot explain.

I never said that what is customery is tollerable, I'm merely saying that the East is founded upon a different infrsutructure and as such, change cannot be expected in the same way as it is within the west. ALso, I'm not criticising the West by any means.

Finally, I must also politely point out that, If a person in the West chooses to have sexual relations outside the bonds of marriage, by legal statutes nothing comes of it. But try to imagin that you way of life, means of income and marrying in the future to a good person from a good family solely depended upon the state of one's virginity, one would view it differently.

Allah S.W.T. is most gracious, most merciful and oft forgiving indeed, but if a person breaks what is stated within the Qur'an and DOES NOT REPENT of it, only in this case Allah shan't be so to such a person (we are just referring to Muslims right now) Imagine a society based upon sex only within marriage and there was no other way to be, one was rebellious and one paid for it by the most severe terms and one's family had to take the burden. If you were in that situation how would you feel about it then.

It's not just Islam either, Judaism has the same stance, also MAry Mother of Jesus when she was with Child the jewish community treattend to stone her because they thought she had had sex before marriage. Even today Most jewish families run by the same code hence they teach their children to save themselves untilmarriage.

It's not my saying that's the way it is, I'm saying read the Qur'an and the Torah and you'll see what I mean, if one was born into a society where such a LAw exists and is upheld no matter what, one cannot expect to chang the infrustructure by complely uprooting it and replacing it with another over time.

Don't twist my words and say that I think that Honour killings are fine and that's it , I'm saying sometimes (percieved rightly or wrongly) it has for some families been necessary and for others an excuse. If you don't understnad what I'm saying after this than I can't say anmore about it. :) Oh and by the way the post originally was giving the background to Honour Killings and nothing more.

Oh and if you lived in Jordan like my friends do, a girl has ot be a virgin when she marries (excluding if she is a divorcee or other extenuating circumstances) because if she isn't serious matters would have arisen. I say again if you came from such a region you would understand. Also just because one person says it's deemed an atrocity doesn't necesssarily mean it is. ie homosexuality is deemed by monotheistic religious texts and religions ot be an abomination, yet modernity and seperating the powers of church and state say to hell with it and allow it but when it suits them they claim they are of the aforementioned religions.

2nd in Oriental culture for example if a personlies to their familiy ie if they said they married when they didn't and the family made preperations etc inc publicising it to guests and thenwere told te truth the Parents would deem that as dishonour (even lets say it was done for a valid reason) it would be judged the same. Although some whould say the daughter or son of the family made a mistake and that's that, in oriental culture it's seen as a LOT more than that and the Son or Daughter of the family wouldbe excommunicated.

Pardon me for being so blunt, you come from a culture where this is not the case, and are judging the East by the standards of your culture not everywhere is the same, therefore the remedy to the "problems" or issues won't be the same.

As I said before in previous post No offence meant, I wonder if anyone read the no offence bit? :)

[Little_star]

"That's only if the Child was born in wedlock. Have you read the noted that accompany the British Passport Application? Ther is where I read it from. That if a CHild was born OUT OF WEDLOCK then the Father isn't legally obliged to pay maintenance to the Child."

Sorry to prove you wrong but all absent fathers have to pay support in the UK and the only grounds not to is lack of funds. Although the CSA has been riddled with problems and scandal.

"Can any leader institute meaningful change or is this truly something that is simply beyond solving? I'm starting to wonder. Battling a "mindset," as you put it so aptly, is an enormous task indeed."

I think to give up so easily would be an injustice to the thousands of women who are murdered. However i do think that changing the law will make littledifference, these practices will still continue, it'll just be behind closed doors where nobody knows the truth. Keeping this issue in the public forums is the best oprion at this time, letting the evil perpetrators know it will no longer be tolerated is a start.

[Roshanah]

Originally Posted by Little_star

"That's only if the Child was born in wedlock. Have you read the noted that accompany the British Passport Application? Ther is where I read it from. That if a CHild was born OUT OF WEDLOCK then the Father isn't legally obliged to pay maintenance to the Child."

Sorry to prove you wrong but all absent fathers have to pay support in the UK and the only grounds not to is lack of funds. Although the CSA has been riddled with problems and scandal.

"Can any leader institute meaningful change or is this truly something that is simply beyond solving? I'm starting to wonder. Battling a "mindset," as you put it so aptly, is an enormous task indeed."

I think to give up so easily would be an injustice to the thousands of women who are murdered. However i do think that changing the law will make littledifference, these practices will still continue, it'll just be behind closed doors where nobody knows the truth. Keeping this issue in the public forums is the best oprion at this time, letting the evil perpetrators know it will no longer be tolerated is a start.

That's not true, have you lived in East London, or other parts of London and the reality is that they DON'T pay. Not because I say so because it's common knowledge that 's why single parent beniitis at a premium especially in East and South London. Fact. Had you read the British Passport Application Form Notes you would have seen what I did because it says it there. Obviously you didn't.

You were talking about changing the Law, well the Law of Islam is perfect and needsnot to be changed because Allah created it. I'm not talking about the additions such as the Sunnah I mean just what Allah S.W.T. says. Also there have been cases where Muslimah have been wrongfully accused and murdered, for their killers they should meet the same fate. However as regards those who willfully do it knowing that Allah S.W.T. says it's wrong and they STILL do it (especially if from a financially challenged family) knowing that their family's especially from rural areas where they mightn't be educated will be made destitute because they couldn't just tell the man that they wanted to have 'fun' with them but only WHEN they are married.

If the girl is (only in this instance) so much in the need for fun and she can't wait and chooses to remain oblivious to the consequences in Shari'ah, what does she expect . I re-itterate only in this instance otherwise it would be wrong. :p

[Roshanah]

Originally Posted by Little_star

"That's only if the Child was born in wedlock. Have you read the noted that accompany the British Passport Application? Ther is where I read it from. That if a CHild was born OUT OF WEDLOCK then the Father isn't legally obliged to pay maintenance to the Child."

Sorry to prove you wrong but all absent fathers have to pay support in the UK and the only grounds not to is lack of funds. Although the CSA has been riddled with problems and scandal.

"Can any leader institute meaningful change or is this truly something that is simply beyond solving? I'm starting to wonder. Battling a "mindset," as you put it so aptly, is an enormous task indeed."

I think to give up so easily would be an injustice to the thousands of women who are murdered. However i do think that changing the law will make littledifference, these practices will still continue, it'll just be behind closed doors where nobody knows the truth. Keeping this issue in the public forums is the best oprion at this time, letting the evil perpetrators know it will no longer be tolerated is a start.

Did you also`see the CSA's actions duringthe 80's? there you'd find another story.

[Little_star]

"That's not true, have you lived in East London, or other parts of London and the reality is that they DON'T pay"

I hate to disappoint you but Britian is a big country and alot of us don't live in London. It's a shame that's the only part of Britian you seem to be knowledgeable of is east London as it's under-developed in many parts and quite deprived. Perhaps that is why you know of cases of people from that area who haven't paid.

"Had you read the British Passport Application Form Notes you would have seen what I did because it says it there. Obviously you didn't."

Perhaps you should look at the Child Support Agency's website, that will provide you with the info you seem to want.
http://www.csa.gov.uk/newcsaweb/index.asp

"You were talking about changing the Law, well the Law of Islam is perfect and needsnot to be changed because Allah created it."

Firstly, Where did I say the Law of Islam needed to be changed? Secondly where does the Law of Islam say a woman may be brutally murdered by her family?

"If the girl is (only in this instance) so much in the need for fun and she can't wait and refuses to remain oblivious to the consequences in Shari'ah, what does she expect . I re-itterate only in this instance otherwise it would be wrong. "

I can't quite believe you have the audacity to question other people's morals when you seem to be advocating murder!?

[Reina]

Thanks again for your explanation. I am glad you are upfront about this issue. But I have read about how cloistered society can be when it is like this. DOn't get me wrong, I believe ppl should wait till they get married to have sexual relations. In fact, in the church we are taught to wait until marriage and to not fornicate. However, ppl do make mistakes and fall into sin. Increasingly, churches are realizing this and providing services to help single parents. But most importantly they are providing love, non-judgment, understanding, and encouragement to get back in the Word and draw closer to Him. But in order to prevent ppl from fornicating and other sins or to get out of that and other sins is that we are teaching them what the Word says and encouraging them to have a relationship w/ Christ. The church is talkign about these issues upfront, so ppl will know the Biblical stance on these types of issues. It definitely helps alot.
Now it seems that although fornication and other sins are discouraged in Muslim society, don't you think that it will only lead the young ones into other ways of doing sinful stuff. Such as different types of relations that might not break the hymen, homosexuality, getting surgery to replace the hymen, etc? I wonder what the religious ppl have to say. And what about if a girl is rape and most of the time she is blamed. She gets killed, but it wasn't her fault. Now, personally I don't think the issue of honor killings will ever get solved b/c it is too fundamental in belief and creed. But I hope some ppl will realize what's up and behave better in regards to this issue. Of course not everyone does it. But even if one was killed as a result of honor killings would be too much. But I think what would definitely help is love, especially love coming from religious authorities and the community.

Originally Posted by Roshanah

What I meant was that Honour Kilings originate from the premise that If a Muslim (although at times the male has been unpunished) has conducted sexual relations outside of Marriage, in Islam this is seen a a major sin aka Haram act. In the East the act can actually shame a family and place them into perminent destitution. That's how it is. No offence meant. I'm not saying that I agree with the extremes that some of them have gone to, but one has to realise this in a place where isn't a welfare infrustructure as in the west, if they loose their good name that's it for them not just destitution but in certain past cases is has been worse. Murder OBVIOUSLY dishonourable, but what you have to understand is that in CERTAIN cases a girl has robbed her family of their good name due to her unguarded behaviour. As such certian families have suffered by ways I cannot explain.

I never said that what is customery is tollerable, I'm merely saying that the East is founded upon a different infrsutructure and as such, change cannot be expected in the same way as it is within the west. ALso, I'm not criticising the West by any means.

Finally, I must also politely point out that, If a person in the West chooses to have sexual relations outside the bonds of marriage, by legal statutes nothing comes of it. But try to imagin that you way of life, means of income and marrying in the future to a good person from a good family solely depended upon the state of one's virginity, one would view it differently.

Allah S.W.T. is most gracious, most merciful and oft forgiving indeed, but if a person breaks what is stated within the Qur'an and DOES NOT REPENT of it, only in this case Allah shan't be so to such a person (we are just referring to Muslims right now) Imagine a society based upon sex only within marriage and there was no other way to be, one was rebellious and one paid for it by the most severe terms and one's family had to take the burden. If you were in that situation how would you feel about it then.

It's not just Islam either, Judaism has the same stance, also MAry Mother of Jesus when she was with Child the jewish community treattend to stone her because they thought she had had sex before marriage. Even today Most jewish families run by the same code hence they teach their children to save themselves untilmarriage.

It's not my saying that's the way it is, I'm saying read the Qur'an and the Torah and you'll see what I mean, if one was born into a society where such a LAw exists and is upheld no matter what, one cannot expect to chang the infrustructure by complely uprooting it and replacing it with another over time.

Don't twist my words and say that I think that Honour killings are fine and that's it , I'm saying sometimes (percieved rightly or wrongly) it has for some families been necessary and for others an excuse. If you don't understnad what I'm saying after this than I can't say anmore about it. :) Oh and by the way the post originally was giving the background to Honour Killings and nothing more.

Oh and if you lived in Jordan like my friends do, a girl has ot be a virgin when she marries (excluding if she is a divorcee or other extenuating circumstances) because if she isn't serious matters would have arisen. I say again if you came from such a region you would understand. Also just because one person says it's deemed an atrocity doesn't necesssarily mean it is. ie homosexuality is deemed by monotheistic religious texts and religions ot be an abomination, yet modernity and seperating the powers of church and state say to hell with it and allow it but when it suits them they claim they are of the aforementioned religions.

2nd in Oriental culture for example if a personlies to their familiy ie if they said they married when they didn't and the family made preperations etc inc publicising it to guests and thenwere told te truth the Parents would deem that as dishonour (even lets say it was done for a valid reason) it would be judged the same. Although some whould say the daughter or son of the family made a mistake and that's that, in oriental culture it's seen as a LOT more than that and the Son or Daughter of the family wouldbe excommunicated.

Pardon me for being so blunt, you come from a culture where this is not the case, and are judging the East by the standards of your culture not everywhere is the same, therefore the remedy to the "problems" or issues won't be the same.

As I said before in previous post No offence meant, I wonder if anyone read the no offence bit? :)

[Savita]

How many more lives will have to be sacrificied in Jordan in order for ppl to revolt against this ridiculuous law dead against human rights?