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  #81  
Old 02-01-2006, 09:35 AM
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In addition, with Jordan being a country with no natural resources, major industries etc, it is well known that Jordan is kept afloat by overseas money. Whether people deem this a handout or not depends upon their point of view however, I think trying to turn Jordan into a hub for service industries is shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted as other ME countries are already doing that as we speak.
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  #82  
Old 02-01-2006, 09:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Little_star
"With regard to honour killings - murder is murder and should be punishes as such. the King can enforce such laws even if he cannot change the mindset."

62% of Jordanians polled by the Jordan Times said they were in favour of honour killing and believed banning it would lead t "moal corruption".
The only thing bannnig it would do what be to create a situation similar to that of bride-burning in India.
Yes it would, still illegal but taking place on a much lesser scale.
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  #83  
Old 02-01-2006, 09:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Little_star
"With regard to honour killings - murder is murder and should be punishes as such. the King can enforce such laws even if he cannot change the mindset."

62% of Jordanians polled by the Jordan Times said they were in favour of honour killing and believed banning it would lead t "moal corruption".
The only thing bannnig it would do what be to create a situation similar to that of bride-burning in India.
So that makes it alright then???????????
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  #84  
Old 02-01-2006, 09:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Little_star
I've asked this many many times:

Please would somebody provide the evidence that Rania and Abdullah are using their aid money on themselves? These allegations amount to gross corruption if true, so a bit of evidence wouldn't go amiss?
I doubt you'll find evidence, not unless people making these claims have access to the royal family's and Jordan's financial figures.

But I can tell you this much. A lot of the aid money is known to be put into developmental projects. There are websites for various organizations like USAID that operate within Jordan. Laura Bush visited some of these places including schools built with US money when she was in Jordan in May of last year.

The aid money, how and what it is spent on, isn't given out like peanuts. Most developed nations aren't in the habit of handing out their money into personal accounts without knowing where its going. They have taxpayers who want to know that their money isn't being used to fill the coffers of a foreign leader. This is especially true since September 11, 2001 which has made western donors very cautious about their donations.

In Canada, every so often, we hear announcements about aid being donated to countries like Jordan and where that money is going to be spent, on what specific projects (education, healthcare, training projects etc) under supervision of our government and representatives. If we give money to some country and dont see it being put into the projects it is meant for, trust me, people and especially the media are going to take notice.
And I believe the same is true of other western nations.
  #85  
Old 02-01-2006, 09:39 AM
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"....And do you have any proof that they DON'T use the money on themselves".

I'm not the one making incorrect assertions. You make an allegation you back it up with proof, that's how it works. Yet another rumour that has proven to be completely false it seems.

"We all saw the lavish vacation they all took last summer on their, I don't know, 3 yatches and shopping sprees across Paris and NewYork."
They spent 2 weeks in Croatia, hardly lavish. Shopping sprees in New York and Paris? A few pictres of Rania in Paris with her children (and I believe te visit coincided with hr work) equals a shopping spree?

"If this is called using your aid money wisley than, well..."

Proof? Evidence? Factual documentation? Yet again you haven't provided any so we must deduce you are spinning tales and spreading rumours for your own reasons.
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  #86  
Old 02-01-2006, 09:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ~*~Humera~*~
I doubt you'll find evidence, not unless people making these claims have access to the royal family's and Jordan's financial figures.

But I can tell you this much. A lot of the aid money is known to be put into developmental projects. There are websites for various organizations like USAID that operate within Jordan. Laura Bush visited some of these places including schools built with US money when she was in Jordan in May of last year.

The aid money, how and what it is spent on, isn't given out like peanuts. Most developed nations aren't in the habit of handing out their money into personal accounts without knowing where its going. They have taxpayers who want to know that their money isn't being used to fill the coffers of a foreign leader. This is especially true since September 11, 2001 which has made western donors very cautious about their donations.

In Canada, every so often, we hear announcements about aid being donated to countries like Jordan and where that money is going to be spent, on what specific projects (education, healthcare, training projects etc) under supervision of our government and representatives. If we give money to some country and dont see it being put into the projects it is meant for, trust me, people and especially the media are going to take notice.
And I believe the same is true of other western nations.
Extra money always makes it s way to the top with aid donations. It is the way the system operates and it is well known that USA funds it 'friends' and their lifestyles. There are plenty of examples fromhistory so Jordan is nothing special in tht regard.
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  #87  
Old 02-01-2006, 09:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Little_star
"....And do you have any proof that they DON'T use the money on themselves".

I'm not the one making incorrect assertions. You make an allegation you back it up with proof, that's how it works. Yet another rumour that has proven to be completely false it seems.

"We all saw the lavish vacation they all took last summer on their, I don't know, 3 yatches and shopping sprees across Paris and NewYork."
They spent 2 weeks in Croatia, hardly lavish. Shopping sprees in New York and Paris? A few pictres of Rania in Paris with her children (and I believe te visit coincided with hr work) equals a shopping spree?

"If this is called using your aid money wisley than, well..."

Proof? Evidence? Factual documentation? Yet again you haven't provided any so we must deduce you are spinning tales and spreading rumours for your own reasons.
Again, can you prove that they don't??? Please back up your assertions with proof as you are asking others to do.
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  #88  
Old 02-01-2006, 09:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lizz70
Are you of Jordanian origin HUmera?
no im not.
  #89  
Old 02-01-2006, 09:42 AM
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"So that makes it alright then???????????"

Please point out where I stated it was ok? You're missing the point. Banning it would achieve nothing because the mindset that it is ok would still prevail. The practice would still continue with people opting for sneakier means as has happened in India with bride burning and dowry killings. With no evidence of a crime the police investigating honour killings would be left with lots of murdered women and no suspects.

Moreover, even if they manages to arrest and charge somebody with the crime, they would still have to face the courts and the very real possibility, that should be probability, of a judge who is sympathetic to the murderer.
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  #90  
Old 02-01-2006, 09:44 AM
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"Again, can you prove that they don't??? Please back up your assertions with proof as you are asking others to do."

I'm not asserting that they don't.
However, I am questioning the claims made by people (yourself included it seems) which are baseless from the lack of evidence provided.
I asked a simple question and nobody seems to be able to answer it substantially, ergo the allegations are false. It's a simple concept.
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  #91  
Old 02-01-2006, 09:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Little_star
"So that makes it alright then???????????"

Please point out where I stated it was ok? You're missing the point. Banning it would achieve nothing because the mindset that it is ok would still prevail. The practice would still continue with people opting for sneakier means as has happened in India with bride burning and dowry killings. With no evidence of a crime the police investigating honour killings would be left with lots of murdered women and no suspects.

Moreover, even if they manages to arrest and charge somebody with the crime, they would still have to face the courts and the very real possibility, that should be probability, of a judge who is sympathetic to the murderer.
But Little Star this is what happens with honour killings now - everyone didn't see anything or hear anything and nothing happened here type thing. What I am trying to say is that there is a big difference between just slapping people on the wrist and saying 'Ooh what a bad thing' and actually takingit a step further and enshrining that in law.
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  #92  
Old 02-01-2006, 09:47 AM
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"The aid money, how and what it is spent on, isn't given out like peanuts. Most developed nations aren't in the habit of handing out their money into personal accounts without knowing where its going. They have taxpayers who want to know that their money isn't being used to fill the coffers of a foreign leader. This is especially true since September 11, 2001 which has made western donors very cautious about their donations"

True, the majority of the money will already be assigned to projects before it even reaches Jordan. Then there's the fact it will be subject to serious scrutiny by accountants etc.
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  #93  
Old 02-01-2006, 09:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ~*~Humera~*~
no im not.
So please stop putting words in the mouths of those that are.
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  #94  
Old 02-01-2006, 09:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Little_star
"Again, can you prove that they don't??? Please back up your assertions with proof as you are asking others to do."

I'm not asserting that they don't.
However, I am questioning the claims made by people (yourself included it seems) which are baseless from the lack of evidence provided.
I asked a simple question and nobody seems to be able to answer it substantially, ergo the allegations are false. It's a simple concept.
Having been at plenty of dinners with members of the World Bank and the IMF not to mention diplomats and politicians, I can assure you that although it may not be publicised it is well known about in certain circles, not just with Jordan but other countries too.
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  #95  
Old 02-01-2006, 09:51 AM
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"But Little Star this is what happens with honour killings now - everyone didn't see anything or hear anything and nothing happened here type thing. ."

That's not the case in most places where it happens. The killers are usually widely prasied by friends and family becuase they've done a "good deed".

". What I am trying to say is that there is a big difference between just slapping people on the wrist and saying 'Ooh what a bad thing' and actually takingit a step further and enshrining that in law."

But what is the point of a law that is not implemented properly or followed? It will acheive nothing. If Abdullah were to use hs power tomorrow to overturn section 341, it wouldn't make a difference to society. That's the point.
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  #96  
Old 02-01-2006, 09:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lizz70
Extra money always makes it s way to the top with aid donations. It is the way the system operates and it is well known that USA funds it 'friends' and their lifestyles. There are plenty of examples fromhistory so Jordan is nothing special in tht regard.
Again, not my job to convince you. You can choose to believe as you wish.
But there are countless projects being run under the supervision of international organizations. There's no need to smear their integrity.
I certainly dont live in a country that's in the habit of having its extra money make its way to the top of the pockets of foreign leaders. And we happen to have developmental projects going on places like Jordan.
  #97  
Old 02-01-2006, 09:53 AM
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There is an underbelly to all political dealings which is not always pleasant to see.
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  #98  
Old 02-01-2006, 09:53 AM
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Originally Posted by lizz70
So please stop putting words in the mouths of those that are.
when did I do that?
Infact I pointed out that people on TRF have claimed to speak for Jordan.
  #99  
Old 02-01-2006, 09:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Little_star
"But Little Star this is what happens with honour killings now - everyone didn't see anything or hear anything and nothing happened here type thing. ."

That's not the case in most places where it happens. The killers are usually widely prasied by friends and family becuase they've done a "good deed".

". What I am trying to say is that there is a big difference between just slapping people on the wrist and saying 'Ooh what a bad thing' and actually takingit a step further and enshrining that in law."

But what is the point of a law that is not implemented properly or followed? It will acheive nothing. If Abdullah were to use hs power tomorrow to overturn section 341, it wouldn't make a difference to society. That's the point.
Yes, they do brag until investigators come sniffing around then these so called 'brave men' show themselves for the cowards they are by keeping quiet. Jordan has one of the most effective secret service agencies in the world today - of course it could be enforced. I think it is more to do with Abdullh not being as secure as he would like and doesn't want to rock the boat.
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  #100  
Old 02-01-2006, 09:57 AM
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"Having been at plenty of dinners with members of the World Bank and the IMF not to mention diplomats and politicians, I can assure you that although it may not be publicised it is well known about in certain circles, not just with Jordan but other countries too."

Thanks, but asurances don't really cut it for me, I'm well aware of the muky world of politics.
I prefer to deal in cold hard facts though.
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