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  #41  
Old 01-31-2006, 12:04 AM
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I actually like the many foreign trips even though they are very expensive. I shows his want to make Jordan international and imporve worldwide relations. I do like the pair. They have come off as good people. I just hate the whole "democracy" front. Everyone knows the King has supreme power. He seems like a smart guy. Forget about democracy and use your power to make drastic changes and then let democracy take shape. I need to see action and real democracy. A good man with a lot of power. That is a blessing and he should take advantage. Six years has been a long enough waiting period.
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  #42  
Old 01-31-2006, 12:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madonna23
whatever the opinion of what rania wore to pakistan - good, bad, appropriate, inappropriate - it was not at all similar to what other women were wearing. i don't mean her clothing but i mean the amount of make-up and jewellery. so, even if one thinks her attire was fine, one cannot say that it was comparable to other women's attire. the other women in the pictures and video wore little make-up and no visible jewellery.
The only other woman with her was the education minister of Pakistan. She had her head covered so I doubt we can tell whether she was wearing jewellery.
In my last post I was speaking of the Firsty lady and the PM's wife who visited the area on separate occasions several times. Not to mention Mrs. Annan, and other foreign women who visited the region.

What is so offensive about a simple pair of earrings Rania has worn many, many times before, they weren't even visible much of the time under her hair.
http://editorial.gettyimages.com/sou...56029766&cdi=0

If this was Rania some people would be complaining about the "designer sunglasses" and the chunky gold earrings. But this happens to be Nane Annan.
Same thing for Condoleeza Rice Is anyone complaining about the earrings and necklace?
There's a definite double standard here. Behaviour that is considered absolutely normal or ignored in other women, is not tolerated in QR.

I dont get the whole makeup thing. If Rania likes to wear makeup, what is wrong with that. Is there some sort of law that says she cant do so. This issue seems to pre-occupy her critics more than anyone else. No one among the victims of the earthquake cared either way, infact from all the coverage i saw in the Pakistani media, Rania's visit was seen as bringing comfort and encouragement. It was her involvement in the immunization campaign that helped immunize thousands of earthquake children against diseases that could've killed them. That was considered more important.

I never heard anyone complain so much about how much makeup a woman's wearing until I saw comments from various posters here on TRF. Either these people come from cultures where makeup is frowned upon or its just another excuse to criticize Rania.
Either way, I dont get it. Infact from my observation Middle Eastern women tend to wear makeup on the very heavy side. And Im not just talking about special events but everyday occassions.

I think what also bothers some people is that Rania is doing all these things, being herself, dressing and being "western" (or what they perceive as western) out in public. Other Arab women, whether wealthy socialites or princesses do the same and much more behind the scenes. The very fact that they're not in the public eye lets them get away with so much more. If some of the Arab societies like Saudi Arabia weren't as close as they are, we'd be hearing some very interesting stories about their royal women that would make Rania look positively tame.
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  #43  
Old 01-31-2006, 01:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Princejohnny25
Forget about democracy and use your power to make drastic changes and then let democracy take shape. I need to see action and real democracy. A good man with a lot of power. That is a blessing and he should take advantage. Six years has been a long enough waiting period.
so get rid of parliament, elections and essentially become a dictator?
Isn't that a little dangerous?
More than anything, monarchs want to hold on to their power, that often means giving in to their subjects. If the monarchs get out of control their people often overthrow them. And what comes after that isn't very pleasant. Russia and Iran are a good example.
Like I said in a post before, King Abdullah can make all the laws he wants. He cant change ancient and traditional mindsets. That sort of change cant be forced.
Thats the irony of it all. People in the west claim they want democracy in the ME. But they want Arab leaders to go about implementing it using blatantly un-democratic means. Has that ever worked?
Would you go to a European monarch in the middle ages and ask him to implement democracy in the sense that we now know it in the west? Even someone from the 18 or 19th century would have trouble with the concept.
If there was true democracy in the ME there wouldn't be any pro-western leaders in the region to begin with.
The recent election of Hamas in Palestine is a good example.
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  #44  
Old 01-31-2006, 01:56 AM
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The king may have supreme power in theory, but he's as susceptible to assassination or army coup as anyone. I don't think he's nearly as secure as you make out, especially in the post-9/11 world.
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  #45  
Old 01-31-2006, 01:58 AM
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my opinion of her make up was like a clowns make up = it was the most civil way of expressing what i observed.
Really? White face, huge curly red wig, plastic red nose, black and blue eyes, false wiggly ears, silly top-hat, plastic carnation that spurts water at people?

How about backing that up with a picture? If you can't actually find a picture of her in literally full clown makeup, then stop exaggerating.
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  #46  
Old 01-31-2006, 02:36 AM
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look everyone has their own opinion about make-up. what you may find a lot may be little for me and vice versa. if some people think she wears too much make-up, then that is their opinion.and, there were other women as well with rania in pakistan in the videos provided by unicef and they were not wearing make-up/jewellery. and, condi is not visiting earthquake victims - she is at an airbase.anyway, i think it is nice that rania visited the victims. i can't judge her becuase i don't know her intentions. but i can say that in my opinion i don't think she was appropriately attired. and i think that others can say she was wearing clown make=up. if that is an exaggeration, then so is the statements made by some members extolling Rania and ABdullah. if one exaggeration is tolerated, so too must the other exaggeration be tolerated.
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  #47  
Old 01-31-2006, 03:33 AM
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No one is extolling KA and QR here. That would involve someone claiming that they're perfect or the best King and Queen of Jordan. Just because Im trying to provide a positive point of view doesnt mean I think they're perfect angels. Sometimes I feel like I have to defend them because there is so much hatred and propaganda spread about them elsewhere. That sort of thing was the norm at TRF when I first joined this forum. It is only recently that the JRF forum has acquired a tone of civility. And thats partly because a lot of King Abdullah and Rania bashers dont post here anymore and partly because the sort of viscious bashing that's allowed elsewhere, isnt tolerated here (Thank God!)
That may give some newer users the false impression that everyone here goes easy on the King and Queen. Whereas many of us are only thankful for the change.
I have no problem with criticism. I'll even agree with some of it. I just dont like name-calling and outright hostility.
Most people have been perfectly civilized in their arguments here, pro or con, that is how it should stay.
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  #48  
Old 01-31-2006, 04:12 AM
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Quote:
and i think that others can say she was wearing clown make=up.
You may think that. I don't. It takes very little to set off major fights in this forum, and an insulting statement about "full clown makeup" is both unnecessary and unwelcome and likely to provoke an overreaction in response. There's absolutely no reason why a person who thinks Queen Rania wears too much makeup can't say "I think she wears too much makeup." Gets the point across perfectly fine without being insulting and, incidentally, untrue (assuming you know what full clown makeup actually looks like).

In a discussion about a topic where feelings run high, it's necessary to be careful about how things are phrased. Insulting exaggerations aren't going to be allowed in this thread whether you think they're appropriate or not.
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  #49  
Old 01-31-2006, 04:20 AM
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Arrow

In general, I observed that the ones who are well informed about what is really going on in Jordan and about the JRF are especially those who had lived some time in Jordan and got in touch with the reality of the country and the royal family. there is a difference between What is going on the ground and what Jordanians really think of their rulers AND between what is published as articles and pictures (PR and media propaganda) .

NB: it is understanble that one does not want to hear negative comments about the one s/he like/loves. Truth hurts..
=======
I could not express in English what bothers me about this couple because my impressions on them are well expressed in my mother tongue. :p Anyway, most of them have been already mentioned in earlier posts.
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  #50  
Old 01-31-2006, 05:14 AM
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"No one is telling women to sit at home nor is anyone telling any woman to shut her mouth."
The vast majority of muslim extremists are, or is it so easy for people to forget the Taliban and their ilk?

"the UAE has succedded in more rights for women than jordan has."
How exactly?

"maybe you should take a look at her attire whilst visiting the quake hit regions of pakistan.... diamond earings, full-clown-like make up etc,,,,,,"
How exactly was she dressed excessively? And clown make-up? Admittedly I've never been to the circus because of my fear of clowns, but there was no clown make-up that day.
And it's interesting that people go on and on about her make-up considering that the Pakistani media and public had nothing but praise for Rania and Abdullah, who was the first foreign leader to visit only a few days after the earthquake.
My cousin works for the Pakistani Forgein Ministry and the people who dealt with Rania during those few days, with the preparation before and on the day said she seemed interested and professional and raised the profile of an extremely neglected natural disaster. They had much the same comments after Angelina Jolie's trip.

"I also have a problem with ANY royal who parades around in disaster zones(Pakistan quake etc.) in Chanel, Valentino, expensive jewelery, and full make up. It is condescending, patronizing, self promoting and most of all, disgusting."
When did she parade in Chanel or Valentino? Perhaps you could show me the pictures?

"whatever the opinion of what rania wore to pakistan - good, bad, appropriate, inappropriate - it was not at all similar to what other women were wearing. i don't mean her clothing but i mean the amount of make-up and jewellery. "

You're right, considering how fashion and clothing obsessed Pakistani women are, Rania was much more soberly dressed.

"If some of the Arab societies like Saudi Arabia weren't as close as they are, we'd be hearing some very interesting stories about their royal women that would make Rania look positively tame."
Ain't that the truth!

The thing I always find odd is that Rania seems to always get the beating where Jordanian politics and society is involved. Shouldn't her husband be the one getting the criticism, not her? After all, she could very easily sit at home all day like some other female muslim Royals, but instead she chooses to be out there, raising the profile of an issue she feels strongly about. And all through choice.
If a person has a problem with Jordanian politics (which I do), at least lay the blame at the correct door. Her husband's.
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  #51  
Old 01-31-2006, 10:08 AM
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HUMERA and ELSPETH - i understand that both of you are adminstrators, but this is a forum where all views and sides should be respected. you both defend rania as though she were a perfect being. in my opinion, she she has cons, more than pros and I am just airing my views. as for the picture, i have attached her looking in my opinion clown-like makeup. beauty is in the eye of the beholder. and in my eye, it was nota picture of beauty. like MADONNA23 said, what you find sedaite in her make up i find exagerated. and at times it might be vice versa on other matters - which i doubt, seeing that this threads adminstrators are not objective when it comes to rania in particular.

this thread is about what bothers us about rania and abdulla - and that is what we are doing. but you keep over exagerating their popularity, work, rule and lifestyle as though they were heaven sent. i disagree with her/his sainthood, accept my opinion, as i do yours, but without the threat of shutting down the thread or deleting what you don't like.

other arab royals can afford their lifestyles, they come from economies based on oil and gas revenues, not hand-out money from the US. Do you know how much it costs to fuel a challenger and fly to london and back to jordan 140,000+ Dollars - money which could be well spent on the people of jordan. do you know how much an eliee saab dress costs? starting at 35,000 Dollars and can go up to 100,000 Dollars (depending on the work on it). with the gulf being the largest exporter of oil and gas in the world, theu are allowed to be extravegent. they do not have millions of refugees, starving people, jobless people or poor people..... they accomodate for their people, they know that their country is only as good as their people's satisfaction in their leadership.

Administrator's Note: The attachment has been removed; images in this thread still need to comply with our attachment policy, and that means that images need to be hosted via another source. --Alexandria
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  #52  
Old 01-31-2006, 10:11 AM
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I am not an administrator.
And I dont think Rania is perfect. I dont know how many times I have to repeat this.
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  #53  
Old 01-31-2006, 10:27 AM
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The oil-rich nations can be extravagant because they're wealthy, fine.
But they also happen to be pro-western. Is that used to slander them? In any of the other threads, the saudi thread for example?
Some of these oil rich nations either dont allow women to vote or have no elections at all, they have segregation of women in many spheres of society. Are the rulers of these nations criticized on the same level as KA and QR?
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  #54  
Old 01-31-2006, 10:41 AM
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Its the fact that the King, who presents himself as an unyielding advocator of democracy limits the freedom of speech in Jordan. An unexpected paradox...
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  #55  
Old 01-31-2006, 10:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ~*~Humera~*~
The oil-rich nations can be extravagant because they're wealthy, fine.
But they also happen to be pro-western. Is that used to slander them? In any of the other threads, the saudi thread for example?
Some of these oil rich nations either dont allow women to vote or have no elections at all, they have segregation of women in many spheres of society. Are the rulers of these nations criticized on the same level as KA and QR?
the only nation that segregates women in saudi arabia, but they allow women to work in schools, hospitals and buisness's. so, lets not push it by saying they have made them incompetent of their lives.

pro-western is not the right word, they are for moving forward, both socially and ecnomically. rania and abdulla are criticized because of their very loud jet-setter lifestyle, a lifestyle that the wealthy of the gulf, do not publicize.

look what voting in palestine has led to - critisim of the winning party and threats left and right. kuwaiti women and men vote. saudi men vote (which was a new thing to the kingdom, womens role in will take time). women are incharge of saudis beiggest university and a women is in charge of one saudis largest companies. both the uae and oman have female ministers. people in the uae, bahrain, oman and qatar are satisfied with their leadership - on the "parliment level" voting is allowed. women have been voted into high positions in the uae.

comapring rights in jordan to that of the gulf is not advisable - the pros of the gulf are higher of that in jordanian leadership.
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  #56  
Old 01-31-2006, 11:07 AM
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"other arab royals can afford their lifestyles, they come from economies based on oil and gas revenues, not hand-out money from the US. "

I've asked this before on other forums as well as this. How do you know they are using aid money? Do you have any actual proof or is just something you choose to believe?
Moreover are you saying it's ok for the Saudi Royal Family, for example, to be disgustingly extravagant just because they happen to have the oil revenue?! There are plenty of poor unemployed people in Saudi Arabia.

"do you know how much an eliee saab dress costs? starting at 35,000 Dollars and can go up to 100,000 Dollars (depending on the work on it). "

Elie Saab dresses do not cost that much! Moreover, Rania has championed his designs for years, do you actually think she pays for them? She probably gets to borrow them all for free.

"the only nation that segregates women in saudi arabia, but they allow women to work in schools, hospitals and buisness's. so, lets not push it by saying they have made them incompetent of their lives."

Saudi Arabia restricts women's freedom of movement in every sphere, their freedom of choice and to deny otherwise is to distort the facts.
Moreover, you failed to answer my earlier question, how are UAE women more "free" than their Jordanian counterparts?

"pro-western is not the right word, they are for moving forward, both socially and ecnomically. rania and abdulla are criticized because of their very loud jet-setter lifestyle, a lifestyle that the wealthy of the gulf, do not publicize."

So the fact they do everything behind doors is better? If some of the stories about some Arab Royals were ever publicised, their citizens would be rioting in the streets. And as for the Gulf, there's plenty of poverty there too, it's just the average Arab likes to ignore the poor immigrant workers building the latest skyscrapers in Dubai and Abu Dhabi.

"comapring rights in jordan to that of the gulf is not advisable - the pros of the gulf are higher of that in jordanian leadership."
Enlighten me are Jordanian women free to leave the country as they please? Are they free to wear what they want? Are they free to vote? Are they free to drive? etc etc.

the list is endless.
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  #57  
Old 01-31-2006, 11:10 AM
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Thats the point of voting, for people to excercise their rights, whether one likes the result or not.

Last time I heard there were no elections in the UAE. And the first elections will be limited.
Now these recent developemts in some Arab nations, albeit small steps, are promising. But I wonder if there were similar restrictions in Jordan, it would be as easily excused as it seems to be in other Arab nations.

Quote:
rania and abdulla are criticized because of their very loud jet-setter lifestyle, a lifestyle that the wealthy of the gulf, do not publicize.
so a jet-set lifestyle is okay as long as its not publicized?
Could it be so simple? That people dont like the fact that King Abdullah and Queen Rania are doing in front of everyone's eyes what other Arab royals do in secret?
If the King and Queen are "jet-setting" to perform their duties, I have no problem with that. If they were taking a vacation or shopping trip every month then I'd be worried. And its not like they can hide because everytime they're in Europe, the US, the paparrazi find them.
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  #58  
Old 01-31-2006, 11:43 AM
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oh Little_star dont get me started on the labourers. Its a known fact how the gulf states treat them, most of whom are Asians. The even look down on their poorer fellow Arabs. One of my girlfriends from high school who moved to Dubai with her hubby told me as much and she happens to love living in Dubai. I have heard similar stories from an Indian family that used to live in Dubai. Anyway, that's off-topic and a touchy topic for me so I wont go into it further.

There's quite a bit of resentment here and much of it has to do with the fact that a lot people dont like the Jordanian King and Queen having a higher international profile or being so visible in the west than their own leaders, especially when Jordan is a poor country. And that's why you continuously see the word "US aid" or "handout" being used in an insulting way to describe Jordan and its King and Queen (and these insults are not coming from Jordanians, mind you. Infact they're likely to make most Jordanians angry) That is quite ironic because the image of the wealthy sheikh often has a negative connotation not only in the west but other parts of the world like Asia.
I can guarantee you that if it was some Sheikha in Rania's place she'd be praised to the skies by the same people.

Its also interesting that a lot of this so-called criticism comes from non-Jordanians, as I mentioned above. Over the past few years when I've asked many Jordanian members at TRF what they think of KA and QR, i get replies like, "we respect them because they are our king and queen"
Once I made an off-hand remark about the number of overseas trips KA had made over a short period of time and I got a rather curt response from a Jordanian who basically said, "he is our King and he knows whats best for our country"
If you check out some of the Jordanian blogs, by natives or expats, they are not full of criticism, infact since the November 11 attacks many of them express admiration and pride in KA and QR.
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  #59  
Old 01-31-2006, 11:55 AM
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" In general, I observed that the ones who are well informed about what is really going on in Jordan and about the JRF are especially those who had lived some time in Jordan and got in touch with the reality of the country and the royal family. there is a difference between What is going on the ground and what Jordanians really think of their rulers AND between what is published as articles and pictures (PR and media propaganda) "

In general, I have observed that it's correct not to make assumptions as to where people have got their knowledge of the Jordanian family from.
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  #60  
Old 01-31-2006, 01:27 PM
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HUMERA and ELSPETH - i understand that both of you are adminstrators, but this is a forum where all views and sides should be respected. you both defend rania as though she were a perfect being.
Just FYI, Humera isn't an administrator or a moderator.

Also FYI, I haven't said a word in defence of Rania; I hardly ever post here. What I've done is to say that casual insults aren't going to be tolerated because they're contrary to the spirit of what the moderation team expects from a thread like this. I've pointed out that in a thread of this sort in a forum where feelings run high, if you think Rania wears too much makeup then please content yourself with saying so and not being egregiously insulting. It's the same difference as the difference between saying that she was overdressed for an occasion and saying she looked like a prostitute.

We're simply asking people to think about what they want to say and to word it in a way that's not inflammatory rather than reacting emotionally and exaggerating. Flames on one side tend to get answered by flames on the other, and that's not going to lead anywhere good.
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