The Royal Forums Coat of Arms


Join The Royal Forums Today
Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
  #21  
Old 01-30-2006, 08:33 PM
Humera's Avatar
Super Moderator
Picture of the Month Representative - Brunei, Malaysia & Dubai
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: , Canada
Posts: 6,667
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZZZ

rania - her unfounded philosophy that modernization does not mean westernization. yet in her "modernization", she is unable to part with her "westernization" in every form and way, from the way she dress's to the way she leads her life to her ideology.
I dont think she ever said its her philosophy. Infact this was mentioned by President Musharraf of Pakistan at the WEF session on Muslim societies. And the panel, not just QR, reached this conclusion together.
They were referring to extremists who accuse those who advocate progress and modernization of being western. People who would prefer to take every Muslim society back to the 7th century, ban music, have women sit at home, not paricipate in politics or public life etc.
I dont like the insinuation that Queen Rania's ideology is western. Are human rights, democracy, just a western ideology?
I believe in all those ideals but i dont consider them western. They are part of the inherent teachings of Islam.
I think the label "western" is almost used as a derrogatory term applied to Rania (and others) to invalidate her ideas by those who dont like change, or what she represents.
__________________

  #22  
Old 01-30-2006, 08:34 PM
Princejohnny25's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: , Antarctica
Posts: 2,033
I dont want to divulge too much into my problems with them because my views are very political but I will generalize and say that the hypocracy and extravagence is what really gets to me. I mean the Queen is supposed to be this championship of Jordanian rights when her husband is the one who wont change the backword laws. He says he wants democracy but the democracy looks pretty fake and if he is still going to retain a lot of power mind as well put it to good use.
__________________

__________________
  #23  
Old 01-30-2006, 08:36 PM
Princejohnny25's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: , Antarctica
Posts: 2,033
Its a shame they are not monarchs of a western or richer nation cause they do make great royals. They know how to get publicity and look like royalty.
__________________
  #24  
Old 01-30-2006, 08:40 PM
Laraib's Avatar
Nobility
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Chicago, United States
Posts: 419
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZZZ
it is not overnight changes that people are expecting. it has been 6 years of publicity shots of the king and queen, 6 years of her growth in western circles, 6 years of no change in their country, 6 years attending events in new clothes and jewels. one of her dress's could feed 10 jordanian or palestinian families that live in refugee camps for a month.
Thank-you! :)
  #25  
Old 01-30-2006, 08:45 PM
ZZZ's Avatar
ZZZ ZZZ is offline
Aristocracy
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: capital, United Arab Emirates
Posts: 143
Quote:
Originally Posted by ~*~Humera~*~
I dont think she ever said its her philosophy. Infact this was mentioned by President Musharraf of Pakistan at the WEF session on Muslim societies. And the panel, not just QR, reached this conclusion together.
They were referring to extremists who accuse those who advocate progress and modernization of being western. People who would prefer to take every Muslim society back to the 7th century, ban music, have women sit at home, not paricipate in politics or public life etc.
I dont like the insinuation that Queen Rania's ideology is western. Are human rights, democracy, just a western ideology?
I believe in all those ideals but i dont consider them western. They are part of the inherent teachings of Islam.
I think the label "western" is almost used as a derrogatory term applied to Rania (and others) to invalidate her ideas by those who dont like change, or what she represents.
as a muslim i welcome change in action-taken, not in talk; as the saying goes "talk is cheap". what democracy have abdulla or rania bestowed on their country? is it in the form of free speech? should'nt free speech be a starting point for democracy? as for human rights, rania being a palestinian has not done much to ease the suffering of the palestinian refugees in jordan, why is that? might it have to do with her gucci loafers getting dirty or her maybe her hectic publicity events does not allow time?

as for the article, what a load of mumbo-jumbo..... why do articles about her always start with "stylish" or "modern"?? why not with "muslim" or "arab" - without a comment on her out-look being commented on? might it have something to do with the west also viewing her image above her actual work (if that is what it is called).
__________________
  #26  
Old 01-30-2006, 08:51 PM
Laraib's Avatar
Nobility
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Chicago, United States
Posts: 419
Quote:
Originally Posted by ~*~Humera~*~
I dont think she ever said its her philosophy. Infact this was mentioned by President Musharraf of Pakistan at the WEF session on Muslim societies. And the panel, not just QR, reached this conclusion together.
They were referring to extremists who accuse those who advocate progress and modernization of being western. People who would prefer to take every Muslim society back to the 7th century, ban music, have women sit at home, not paricipate in politics or public life etc.
I dont like the insinuation that Queen Rania's ideology is western. Are human rights, democracy, just a western ideology?
I believe in all those ideals but i dont consider them western. They are part of the inherent teachings of Islam.
I think the label "western" is almost used as a derrogatory term applied to Rania (and others) to invalidate her ideas by those who dont like change, or what she represents.
No one is telling women to sit at home nor is anyone telling any woman to shut her mouth. What I don't like about Rania is that--now it's just an example--she is giving us a knife but not telling us how to use nor informing us of it's dangers. She is visiting American schools to "help other countries come to know of Jordan and it's traditions" while back in her country people are dying of hunger? What does this really say about Rania and her principles?(It's not the best example I could think of:o )It's strange how Queen Rania is all about democracy yet, she still RULES a country?The reason why I, personally, consider Rania trying to fit in with the westren culture is because of her clothes--sorry.I mean her attire, sometimes, is awful.(elegent though )Iam not going to lie, if I showed a picture of her "evening dresses" to one of my nonmuslim friends, they would not be able to distingush her as a "muslim queen." I don't mean to offend you Humera.:)
  #27  
Old 01-30-2006, 08:52 PM
Humera's Avatar
Super Moderator
Picture of the Month Representative - Brunei, Malaysia & Dubai
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: , Canada
Posts: 6,667
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZZZ
it is not overnight changes that people are expecting. it has been 6 years of publicity shots of the king and queen, 6 years of her growth in western circles, 6 years of no change in their country, 6 years attending events in new clothes and jewels. one of her dress's could feed 10 jordanian or palestinian families that live in refugee camps for a month.
really? 6 years isn't overnight in a region that has had these problems for centuries?
there hasn't been a revolution, but there have been changes. Increased participation of women in politics, business, and other spheres of life.

Recent article from an organization based in Sweden:

Jordan has seen important achievements in recent years regarding women’s rights and empower­ment and the raising of their status in society. In addition to increasingly entering the workplace, education and politics, women have recently obtained a number of rights, represented in amendments to some laws, including a quota of seats for women in Parliament and provisions related to divorce initiated by the wife, male polygamy, and the raising of the legal age of marriage. In addition, a gender perspective was incorporated in the five-year national development plan for 1999–2003 in various state institutions and government departments.
http://www.idea.int/arab_world/jordan/index.cfm
  #28  
Old 01-30-2006, 08:55 PM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: , Canada
Posts: 3,245
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZZZ
it is not overnight changes that people are expecting. it has been 6 years of publicity shots of the king and queen, 6 years of her growth in western circles, 6 years of no change in their country, 6 years attending events in new clothes and jewels. one of her dress's could feed 10 jordanian or palestinian families that live in refugee camps for a month.
I think it will take more than six years to change centuries of traditional and very conservative beliefs. To expect that Abdullah and Rania will have completely transformed the Jordan they inherited into a modern one is unrealistic, and is setting them up to fail.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZZZ
as for the article, what a load of mumbo-jumbo..... why do articles about her always start with "stylish" or "modern"?? why not with "muslim" or "arab" - without a comment on her out-look being commented on? might it have something to do with the west also viewing her image above her actual work (if that is what it is called).
But there isn't anything Rania can do about how journalists write about her or what they take away from interviews about her. She could've talked about women's rights for three hours non-stop without a single comment about what designer she was wearing, but if the journalist goes back and decides to start his or her article about how "modern" or "stylish" or "fashionable" Rania is, what can she do? Rania can't really control what's written about her -- because as some of members have commented on, among the rights the King and Queen should be fighting for is freedom of speech -- so isn't a journalist who starts his or her article off that Rania is modern and stylish rather than Arab and Muslim exercising his or her free speech?
__________________
  #29  
Old 01-30-2006, 08:59 PM
Laraib's Avatar
Nobility
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Chicago, United States
Posts: 419
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexandria
I think it will take more than six years to change centuries of traditional and very conservative beliefs. To expect that Abdullah and Rania will have completely transformed the Jordan they inherited into a modern one is unrealistic, and is setting them up to fail.



But there isn't anything Rania can do about how journalists write about her or what they take away from interviews about her. She could've talked about women's rights for three hours non-stop without a single comment about what designer she was wearing, but if the journalist goes back and decides to start his or her article about how "modern" or "stylish" or "fashionable" Rania is, what can she do? Rania can't really control what's written about her -- because as some of members have commented on, among the rights the King and Queen should be fighting for is freedom of speech -- so isn't a journalist who starts his or her article off that Rania is modern and stylish rather than Arab and Muslim exercising his or her free speech?
What if that jounalist said that she WASN"T stylish or fashionable?I wanna see how far that freedom of speech thing lasts.
  #30  
Old 01-30-2006, 09:07 PM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: , Canada
Posts: 3,245
Quote:
Originally Posted by Laraib
What if that jounalist said that she WASN"T stylish or fashionable?I wanna see how far that freedom of speech thing lasts.
But then you're putting her (them) into a position where they can't be right or wrong: On the one hand people want articles about her to reflect more than her physical appearance or her designer clothes, and to focus on her causes and her work. Yet by the same token, you're saying that if they don't say anything about her physical appearance they would seek to curb the freedom of speech by these journalists.

How is that fair?

I'm all for criticism of public figures, but you can't be unreasonable about it. You have to be objective and be fair. You can't expect that they'll be able to walk on water or that they'll be able to jump through hoops -- whatever their title, they are still human.

Besides, if someone at TIME Magazine writes that Rania isn't fashionable or isn't pretty, as TIME is based out of New York, there isn't much the King or Queen can do to curb their right to freedom of speech. If they do do that, they could only squash that right within Jordan, and possibly in other ME nations, but certainly not in the U.S.
__________________
  #31  
Old 01-30-2006, 09:07 PM
ZZZ's Avatar
ZZZ ZZZ is offline
Aristocracy
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: capital, United Arab Emirates
Posts: 143
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexandria
I think it will take more than six years to change centuries of traditional and very conservative beliefs. To expect that Abdullah and Rania will have completely transformed the Jordan they inherited into a modern one is unrealistic, and is setting them up to fail.



But there isn't anything Rania can do about how journalists write about her or what they take away from interviews about her. She could've talked about women's rights for three hours non-stop without a single comment about what designer she was wearing, but if the journalist goes back and decides to start his or her article about how "modern" or "stylish" or "fashionable" Rania is, what can she do? Rania can't really control what's written about her -- because as some of members have commented on, among the rights the King and Queen should be fighting for is freedom of speech -- so isn't a journalist who starts his or her article off that Rania is modern and stylish rather than Arab and Muslim exercising his or her free speech?
the UAE has succedded in more rights for women than jordan has. yet it is jordan that is lauded as being the most progressive in western ways. the UAE is far more steeped in tradtion than jordan has ever been. yet they have been able to hold on to tradtion and modernize both their way of life and philosophy.

do not tell me that 6 years is considered overnight. they did not walk into the dark ages, they took over a rich dynasty, that had already been set up.. all they had to do, was move with the times, they are stuck in king hussein's era (which was good for his time, but not rania and abdullas). i am not saying they need to make a 180 degree change, but they need to make a significant change.

as for free speech, people are allowed to say what they want, when they want - in the west. as for in jordan - 6years has led to nothing but the growth of extravagance.
__________________
  #32  
Old 01-30-2006, 09:13 PM
Humera's Avatar
Super Moderator
Picture of the Month Representative - Brunei, Malaysia & Dubai
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: , Canada
Posts: 6,667
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZZZ
might it have to do with her gucci loafers getting dirty or her maybe her hectic publicity events does not allow time?
its hard for me to carry on a serious and useful conversation when confronted with comments like that. While I have seen much of this over the years I've been at TRF, I wont bother engaging in such conversations anymore.
Maybe you should have a look at the hundreds of pictures of Rania in refugee camps. She wasn't wearing any "gucci loafers" then.


Quote:
as for the article, what a load of mumbo-jumbo..... why do articles about her always start with "stylish" or "modern"?? why not with "muslim" or "arab" - without a comment on her out-look being commented on? might it have something to do with the west also viewing her image above her actual work (if that is what it is called).
Maybe you should write and complain to the people who write those articles. Dont ask me to justify or excuse their mentality. And dont blame Rania for it either. But apparently these articles make a different impression on different people. Some focus on the brief opening comments about looks while others find the substance of it more interesting.
  #33  
Old 01-30-2006, 09:32 PM
ZZZ's Avatar
ZZZ ZZZ is offline
Aristocracy
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: capital, United Arab Emirates
Posts: 143
Quote:
Originally Posted by ~*~Humera~*~
its hard for me to carry on a serious and useful conversation when confronted with comments like that. While I have seen much of this over the years I've been at TRF, I wont bother engaging in such conversations anymore.
Maybe you should have a look at the hundreds of pictures of Rania in refugee camps. She wasn't wearing any "gucci loafers" then.




Maybe you should write and complain to the people who write those articles. Dont ask me to justify or excuse their mentality. And dont blame Rania for it either. But apparently these articles make a different impression on different people. Some focus on the brief opening comments about looks while others find the substance of it more interesting.
trying to degrade my opinion is not going to sway my ideas of them. as for her not weaaring gucci loafers, it was not in the litreal sense. maybe you should take a look at her attire whilst visiting the quake hit regions of pakistan.... diamond earings, full-clown-like make up etc,,,,,,

also, trying to insult my intelligence by suggesting that i only read the opening comments is wrongly-placed. i read the whole article FYI. it had to about her glossy hair, her push behind closed doors on influencing her husband - which by the way, is heavily contradicted further on in the article. king abdulla says (something along the lines of, she does not cross the boundary/line), kind of like the little wife who obeys - not very modern......
__________________
  #34  
Old 01-30-2006, 09:40 PM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: , Canada
Posts: 3,245
As Elspeth has already stated, this is to be an intelligent discussion. Phrases such as "full-clown makeup" do not constitute as intelligent conversation in my eyes.

You can criticise Rania and Abdullah within civil realms, but there is no need to degrade the conversation with petty insults or backhanded comments toward other members.

This applies to everyone. I will not hesitate to close this thread because some members cannot behave. Such threads have been able to continue for many dozens of pages in other forums because the members, while critical, did not sink to childish comments -- the very kind of childish comments and insulting attacks on particular royals and other members that led to the entire Jordanian forum being closed around this time last year.

Criticize but be civil. This is not a kindergarten playground.

Alexandria
Jordanain Royals Forum Moderator
__________________
  #35  
Old 01-30-2006, 09:44 PM
Humera's Avatar
Super Moderator
Picture of the Month Representative - Brunei, Malaysia & Dubai
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: , Canada
Posts: 6,667
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZZZ
maybe you should take a look at her attire whilst visiting the quake hit regions of pakistan.... diamond earings, full-clown-like make up
etc,,,,,,
wearing a simple pair of diamond earings that QR has worn over and over on countless occasions is not valid criticism. Just because she's visiting a disaster doesnt mean she has to go there looking like a mourner. She was dressed perfectly fine.
No one criticised her in the Pakistani media. Everyone was grateful for her efforts. She looked no different from the Pakistani first lady or the wife of the PM or other notable women who visited the earthquake region.

Quote:
king abdulla says (something along the lines of, she does not cross the boundary/line)
he said there are some lines she cant cross, which makes sense because she's the consort not the monarch. But KA also said "she's a reflection of me, and I of her."
He's the one who got her so involved in Jordanian affairs in the first place.
Apparently a lot of peole would prefer it if she had no say and was the obedient wife who stayed in a palace to raise children. But Rania's not a traditional woman and King Abdullah is certainly not a traditional man.
  #36  
Old 01-30-2006, 09:49 PM
Aristocracy
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 156
My problem with this duo is the extravagance. Jordan being destitute... and having royals who are more concerned about designer clothes, Vogue interviews/photos shoots and their image abroad. They don't care about what people at home think about them, because at home, people do not have the right to say what they really think, without fear of retribution in some form.
I also have a problem with ANY royal who parades around in disaster zones(Pakistan quake etc.) in Chanel, Valentino, expensive jewelery, and full make up. It is condescending, patronizing, self promoting and most of all, disgusting.
__________________
  #37  
Old 01-30-2006, 09:51 PM
ZZZ's Avatar
ZZZ ZZZ is offline
Aristocracy
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: capital, United Arab Emirates
Posts: 143
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexandria
As Elspeth has already stated, this is to be an intelligent discussion. Phrases such as "full-clown makeup" do not constitute as intelligent conversation in my eyes.

You can criticise Rania and Abdullah within civil realms, but there is no need to degrade the conversation with petty insults or backhanded comments toward other members.

This applies to everyone. I will not hesitate to close this thread because some members cannot behave. Such threads have been able to continue for many dozens of pages in other forums because the members, while critical, did not sink to childish comments -- the very kind of childish comments and insulting attacks on particular royals and other members that led to the entire Jordanian forum being closed around this time last year.

Criticize but be civil. This is not a kindergarten playground.

Alexandria
Jordanain Royals Forum Moderator
my opinion of her make up was like a clowns make up = it was the most civil way of expressing what i observed.
__________________
  #38  
Old 01-30-2006, 10:44 PM
Courtier
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 516
whatever the opinion of what rania wore to pakistan - good, bad, appropriate, inappropriate - it was not at all similar to what other women were wearing. i don't mean her clothing but i mean the amount of make-up and jewellery. so, even if one thinks her attire was fine, one cannot say that it was comparable to other women's attire. the other women in the pictures and video wore little make-up and no visible jewellery.

anyway, intentions are what matters - maybe she went their dressed appropriately according to her standards.
__________________
  #39  
Old 01-30-2006, 10:47 PM
Courtier
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 516
also, if in 6 years an american president can change the face of america, then a monarch - who wields far more power and does not have to deal with a parliament to the same degree and can control the west - can change the face of jordan.

i'm afraid that 20 years from now, some will say that we must still wait for change because the king has only been ruling for 26 years.
__________________
  #40  
Old 01-30-2006, 10:49 PM
Courtier
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 516
DISLIKE
*frequent trips abroad (way too much - even if jordan could afford it, it would be appropriate. they are monarchs not jet-setters.)

LIKE
*participation in humanitarian missions such as pakistan earthquake help
__________________

__________________
Closed Thread


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
King Abdullah of Jordan and Queen Rania: 10 June 1993 tipper Royal Weddings 69 08-31-2013 02:19 PM
Working visit to New York, Washington: September 13-17, 2005 Humera King Abdullah and Queen Rania and Family 56 10-01-2005 09:59 PM




Additional Links
Popular Tags
abdication birth birthday bourbon-parma camilla charlene chris o'neill crown prince frederik crown prince haakon crown princess letizia crown princess mary crown princess mette-marit crown princess victoria danish royals engagement fashion genealogy grand duchess maria teresa grand duke henri habsburg hereditary grand duchess stéphanie hereditary grand duke guillaume hohenzollern infanta elena king abdullah king abdullah ii king albert ii king carl xvi gustav king juan carlos king philippe king willem-alexander olympic games picture thread pom pregnancy prince albert prince albert ii prince constantijn prince felipe prince felix prince frederik prince henrik prince joachim prince laurent princess princess alexia (2005 -) princess ariane princess beatrix princess catharina-amalia princess charlene princess charlene daytime fashion princess haya princess laurentien princess letizia princess mabel princess madeleine princess marie princess mary princess maxima queen mathilde queen maxima queen rania queen silvia queen sofia royal russia state visit wedding willem-alexander william


Our Communities

Our communities encompass many different hobbies and interests, but each one is built on friendly, intelligent membership.

» More about our Communities

Automotive Communities

Our Automotive communities encompass many different makes and models. From U.S. domestics to European Saloons.

» More about our Automotive Communities

RV & Travel Trailer Communities

Our RV & Travel Trailer sites encompasses virtually all types of Recreational Vehicles, from brand-specific to general RV communities.

» More about our RV Communities

Marine Communities

Our Marine websites focus on Cruising and Sailing Vessels, including forums and the largest cruising Wiki project on the web today.

» More about our Marine Communities


Copyright 2002-2012 Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:51 AM.

Social Knowledge Networks

eXTReMe Tracker
Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2014
Jelsoft Enterprises

Royal News Delivered to your Email!

You can get the latest Royal News right in your inbox.

unsusbcribe at anytime with one click

Close [X]