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  #41  
Old 01-10-2004, 11:29 AM
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Ooops. I seem to have ruffled a few non designer feathers here. I will respond in greater detail to my detratctors soon but suffice to say for now - it was really all about the extravagance and the criticism ALL royal women get from time to time regarding it. Its a double edged sword and like it or not Sean, the criticism has got nothing to do with politics, Arabs, laws, money, the under privileged or anything else. The press need something to sell papers and taking a pop at someone in the spotlight is a good way to do it. Maybe I am relying too much on the whole Windsor thing (although I do live in the Middle East - and have done for 20 years) but I will respond at greater length asap.....

PS the above was meant to be tongue incheek so please dont give me a hard time about it. I will tackle the issues you raised next time.
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  #42  
Old 01-10-2004, 11:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by brian@Jan 10th, 2004 - 10:29 am
Ooops. I seem to have ruffled a few non designer feathers here. I will respond in greater detail to my detratctors soon but suffice to say for now - it was really all about the extravagance and the criticism ALL royal women get from time to time regarding it. Its a double edged sword and like it or not Sean, the criticism has got nothing to do with politics, Arabs, laws, money, the under privileged or anything else. The press need something to sell papers and taking a pop at someone in the spotlight is a good way to do it. Maybe I am relying too much on the whole Windsor thing (although I do live in the Middle East - and have done for 20 years) but I will respond at greater length asap.....

PS the above was meant to be tongue incheek so please dont give me a hard time about it. I will tackle the issues you raised next time.
Actually, you're wrong. It's isn't in the Press in Jordan, as the press is censored there. It isn't exactly a democracy, you know. And you haven't ruffled any feathers. If you can not respond with anything substantive, please do not respond with insults. I have nothing against designer wear, as I too buy designer wear, but I'm not dependent on aid. Nor am I a leader who has to be concerned about public opinion and perceptions.

It's just obvious that you are very uninformed, particularly for someone who purpports to live in the ME. You obviously know little about the history of the region, as you do not have a...um...researched opinion. One has to wonder about someone who would tell the wife of the head of an authoritarian dictator to do wihatever they think is best. You obviously are not familiar with the corruption and human rights abuses in that country. In any event, I think you are relying too m uch on the Windsors. Each country is different, with its own culture, history, and economic realities. Also, I wonder why you can not respond now? Have to look up some facts, no doubt.

I will say that all royal women do not get the kind of criticism Rania al-Abdullah garners. The ones that do, however, are not Queens of underdeveloped, aid-dependant countries in a volatile region. Moreover, those who are criticizid usually change their ways and govern themselves in more appropriate manner. Rania, however, has yet to do so. Her husband's subjects do compare and contrast their situation and socioeconomic conditions to her lifestyle, and it does, like it or not, add to the aleady present underlying resentment of living in an authoritarian, repressive police state live environment. Remember the Pahalavis? I'll say it again: regimes that do not listen to their people end up in the dustbin of history. Likewise, westerners with a modicum of intelligence are able to compare and contrast the lifestyle of the Hashemites to the resources of the country and the amount of aid it receives. This too fuels resentment (at least amongst the better informed).

Asma & Synthia, do you have anything to add?

Regards,

S.
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  #43  
Old 01-10-2004, 03:58 PM
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queen rania represent arabic girls with their intreset fo fashion
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  #44  
Old 01-10-2004, 04:01 PM
Commoner
 
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I'm taking notes Sean....but really you are the one who is not so much uninformed as naive. I am extremely informed about the Middle East. I am also a realist. However...more to follow.

Don't get too worked up about it though, because you certainly are not going to change anything for the Jordanians by bitching about how much Queen Rania pays for her handbags.
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  #45  
Old 01-10-2004, 04:06 PM
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Oh and I don't "purport" to live in the Middle East. I do.

Lighten up
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  #46  
Old 01-10-2004, 04:11 PM
Humble
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Sorry..

Sean is well informed and his replies are always well articulated and supported...we know he cannot change the jordanian family, but i guess this is a weak argument from your side. Your position is passive..

We are discussing and sharing our opinions. Afterall, we do not know who is reading the posts. if Sean and some others are of the same opinion, then this should be of concern to the Jordanian family as this is their public image that Rania is trying to polish and doing all her best to smooch the Western media..
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  #47  
Old 01-10-2004, 04:24 PM
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The opinion of SOME people is that she is trying to smooch (?) etc and polish up their image.....Others opinions are that she is walking a thin line and doing it rather well. Anyone in the public eye is open to criticism of course...maybe not publicly in the Middle East but thats the way it is here .

What is the Queen trying to achieve? I think you are certainly being rather dismissive if you assume that all she is tryin g to do is expand her wardrobe.

And that is why this whole discussion is going nowhere.

Sadly some people cannot look beyond the harsh realities _ and make no mistake - I know what they are talking about. But that is really is beyond Queen Rania's "power". That is the reality. So again, a few handbags really aren't going to change things.

The nations with true power can change the Middle East. And they are of course and as always, Saudi and the US.

Harsh but true. It certainly isnt Queen Rania. But she is trying to do something - so give her credit for that at least. Or do something yourselves.
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  #48  
Old 01-10-2004, 04:29 PM
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Join Date: Apr 2003
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Quote:
Originally posted by brian@Jan 10th, 2004 - 3:01 pm
I'm taking notes Sean....but really you are the one who is not so much uninformed as naive. I am extremely informed about the Middle East. I am also a realist. However...more to follow.

Don't get too worked up about it though, because you certainly are not going to change anything for the Jordanians by bitching about how much Queen Rania pays for her handbags.

Quote:
I'm taking notes Sean
Well, kudos to you. I, on the other hand, do not need to take notes. I know what I'm talking about. Whether you respond with anything substantive or not is of no concern to me. I'm actually not interested in hearing the opinon of somone who obviously supports a human rights abuses etc.

Actually, I think you are the one is naive and lacking in anayltical skills if you can not see that the royal family's spending and lifestyle can have some serious repurcussions. One only has to look at history. Or, on the other hand, one can also look at our own system. When leaders spend meagre resources (we're always being told these days that there is no money for healthcare, etc ) on yachting around the world, shopping at Dior, buying new tiaras, etc. while the people are doing without, we vote them out. In Jordan this option does not exist. and compare this with our own Weestern

You say that your are a realist. I assume you mean so in an international relations sense, which I think may be part of the problem. I too deploy the realist lense with regards to certain issues, but one can not view the world with just one lense. Realism does not ask all all the questions all of the time. One must also view the world from different lenses in order to get different perspectives. Realists are often too concerned with effect and not with cause. I think one has too look at both.

And I am certainly not getting worked about anything. Your language,however, indicates that you are. And I don't really care how she pays for her handbags. It is how she is *erceived* to pay for them that matters. And kindly do not tell me that I am not going to change anything for the Jordanians. I have been working with Palestinians through NGOs and non-profit groups for years.
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  #49  
Old 01-10-2004, 04:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by brian@Jan 10th, 2004 - 3:06 pm
Oh and I don't "purport" to live in the Middle East. I do.

Lighten up
Well, you obviously do not live in Jordan. In my experience that live in the Middle East often know nothing about local realities, as they are there for professional reasons and live entirely seperate lives and by different rules. I'm not saying this is necessarily true for you, but has been my observation (and I know many people in the ME).
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  #50  
Old 01-10-2004, 04:41 PM
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Ok I am walking away from this.

I am not blind to the inequality that exists in the Middle East - but everyone has to look at the reality of the situation. The sad fact - and I mean this - is that it is up to the Americans to decide what happens to all of us. Its not even the Palestinians anymore - its all of us on this planet. If you work with these people, Sean, I am sure that even you realise this much. If the Hashemites are as so hated, why restrict your venom to them and not other puppets of the USA. You might as well hate the whole world.

I say again as I said before...why are you wasting your time and your breathe criticising a woman who has married into a job and is kind of stuck with it. She is making the best of what is certainly a losing situation (for the palestinians of course) and I think (in my obviously uninformed way) doing her bit for Jordan and the Jordanians.

If you work with these people, why do you even give a damn what this woman spends on clothes???? Thats what I dont understand.
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  #51  
Old 01-10-2004, 04:44 PM
Aristocracy
 
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Posts: 109
So, Brian do you approve the lavish lifestyle of Rania, Saddam Hussein and others leaders in third world countries.
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  #52  
Old 01-10-2004, 04:49 PM
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Join Date: Apr 2003
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Quote:
The opinion of SOME people is that she is trying to smooch (?) etc and polish up their image.....Others opinions are that she is walking a thin line and doing it rather well. Anyone in the public eye is* open to criticism of course...maybe not publicly in the Middle East but thats the way it is here .
I don't know which country you're in (perhaps one of the richer Arab states), but that is not the case in Jordan or the Occupied territories. Or even in most surounding states.

Quote:
What is the Queen trying to achieve? I think you are certainly being rather dismissive if you assume that all she is tryin g to do is expand her wardrobe.
I've never taken that position. Although, I think her economic and social policies are out of order and they do much less (the proof is in the pudding) than they make with respect to ameliorating the lives of Palestinians. You fail to grasp the jist of the argument: Her lifestyle and *perceived* spending breeds animosity in an already volatile reagion. The monrachy is not that stable. Not only does this take away from whatever good work she may do, but it may also have more serious repurcussions (i.e. violence and some kind of revolution). Even the Pentagon thinks it is a possibility (see Asma's article in another thread). And it is more than a few handbags. We're talking hundreds. And I shop designer and so I know how much one of these things costs (try thousands). One of her dresses costs more than the average Jordanian makes in a year (and Rania is not known for recycling her clothes). One can look good by toning it down a little. Look at the Queen of Sweden. She is the Queen of a rich, developed country. Yet the Swedish RF is very cognizant of public opinion and recycles outfits and jewels, etc . She still manages to look very good (better than Rania as far as I'm concerned). If any of the European royals were to spend like Rania (whether in reality or in perception), there would be an outcry. However, the way you make out, Jordanians are should not be allowed to hold their leaders to account. Why? Some kind of new Orientalism (I'm sure you'r familiar with that theory?). Or, to put it bluntly, brown people don't know what's good for them and thus need authoritarian leaders, controlled by outside interests, to decide what is best for them? I may be wrong, but that is the underlying message I am getting from your posts.

Quote:

And that is why this whole discussion is going nowhere.
No, it's going nowhere because you've failed to make any substantive points.


Quote:
Sadly some people cannot look beyond the harsh realities _ and make no mistake - I know what they are talking about. But that is really is beyond Queen Rania's "power".* That is the reality. So again, a few handbags really aren't going to change things.
Again, it is not a few handbags. The rest of the above paragraph makes no sense to me. Sorry.

Quote:
The nations with true power can change the Middle East. And they are of course and as always, Saudi and the US.
See above.

Quote:
Harsh but true. It certainly isnt Queen Rania. But she is trying to do something - so give her credit for that at least. Or do something yourselves.
Well, IMO, it is certainly neither harsh nor true, as your statement makes no sense (to me). Pray tell what exactly it is that she is trying to do? Aer you referring to Eastern Western relations? If so, I'm the first to admit that Eastern Western relations are important. However, they should not be pursued at the expense of ones own people (the Palestinians) or by discounting their wants, needs, freedoms, and by ignoring their views and wishes (the Jordanians). That will only lead to trouble in the future (that's why he was protected by American armed forces and had an American plane at his disposal to bring him into exile during the Iraq war).
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  #53  
Old 01-10-2004, 04:51 PM
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Its not a question of approval. There are stages of wealth and the wealth should (should) filter down through the system. I would hardly say the Jordanian Royal Family live lavishly by Iraqui, Gulf or European standards. There are imperfections in every system and I am sure the Jordanians are no different,. But why is everyone getting so worked up about what the Queen spends on clothes? It seems rather silly if you focus on Sean's long list of Royal iniquities!

Thats all I am trying to say!
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  #54  
Old 01-10-2004, 05:01 PM
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Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 898
Quote:
Ok I am walking away from this.
Obviously because you can not argue with facts. That's fine. I expected as much.

Quote:
Sean, I am sure that even you realise this much. If the Hashemites are as so hated, why restrict your venom to them and not other puppets of the USA. You might as well hate the whole world.
Spare me the hyperbole. We are discussing the Hashemites because this is a Middle Eastern royalty forum. That's why. And the subject wasn't started by me. If you want to engage in discussions about other US client states, that is fine. We can do that, but no here. And it isn't venom. I tried to back up all of my arguments to the best of my ability with facts, citations, historical similarities, theory, etc. So do not insult me just because you can not or will not produce a substantive counter argument.

Quote:
If you work with these people, why do you even give a damn what this woman spends on clothes???? Thats what I dont understand.
Because THEY give a damn. It makes THEM upset. And it isn't only the whole spending thing. It all adds to their feeling of despair and hopelessness. While they suffer in squalid refugee camps, their leaders spend, spend, spend and cozy up to the leaders of the state that pays billions to the state that not only put them in those camps to begin with, but also provides the weaponry that terrorizes them, demolishes their homes, and kills their children. They take offence to the fact that their Hashemite King loses his tongue while Bush blames them for the entire conflict in the Middle East. That's why. It is this percetpion that matters.

Enjoy the rest of your weekend.
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  #55  
Old 01-10-2004, 05:04 PM
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Join Date: Apr 2003
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Quote:
Originally posted by brian@Jan 10th, 2004 - 3:51 pm
Its not a question of approval. There are stages of wealth and the wealth should (should) filter down through the system. I would hardly say the Jordanian Royal Family live lavishly by Iraqui, Gulf or European standards. There are imperfections in every system and I am sure the Jordanians are no different,. But why is everyone getting so worked up about what the Queen spends on clothes? It seems rather silly if you focus on Sean's long list of Royal iniquities!

Thats all I am trying to say!
The trickle down economic theory is a 19th century relic. Moreover, it was a theory for industrialized, liberal societies (and it didn't even work too well in those). Trickle down doesnt' work where one family and it's cronies hoard all of the wealth and spend it abroad at Dior, Chanel, Elie Saab, etc.


And they sure do spend as much as the Gulf States and Iraq, at least in perception. Besides, these countries had oil. Jordan depends on foreign aid. Finally, they are concentrating on her *perceived* spending because they realize that this can have serious consequences given the political, economic, and historical realities of her country and of the region.
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  #56  
Old 01-10-2004, 05:40 PM
Aristocracy
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 109
Quote:
Originally posted by brian@Jan 10th, 2004 - 3:51 pm
Its not a question of approval. There are stages of wealth and the wealth should (should) filter down through the system. I would hardly say the Jordanian Royal Family live lavishly by Iraqui, Gulf or European standards. There are imperfections in every system and I am sure the Jordanians are no different,. But why is everyone getting so worked up about what the Queen spends on clothes? It seems rather silly if you focus on Sean's long list of Royal iniquities!

Thats all I am trying to say!
Well, Brian I do feel that we have right to be critical of Rania as long as Jordan will use our money. I am Canadian and Canada contributes a lot of money to third world countries. We pay huge amount of fees to the UN and every year some pie of our budget goes to third world countries. The majority of Canadian revenue comes from Canadian taxpayers. Our taxes are high (which is OK). This year we gave 1.2 billion to those countries, year before 1 billion. Now, we have new prime minister and one of his hobbies are third world countries. So we can expect that the sum will go up. I do believe that we should share our wealth with those who are less privilege. However, I do believe that we have right to judge the leaders from those countries the way we judge our politicians. And we do not spare them from anything. We watch every step they do. And if our prime minister wife would spend as much as Rania does, he would not be prime minister for one minute. Our politicians serve us not we them.
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  #57  
Old 01-10-2004, 06:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by brian@Jan 10th, 2004 - 3:41 pm
I say again as I said before...why are you wasting your time and your breathe criticising a woman who has married into a job and is kind of stuck with it.
Not trying to distract from the politics and histories of this discussion, but a glaring point for me:

Yes, Queen Rania married into the royal family, and her husband was made heir to throne at the last minute, but lots of other women have married into royal families and made much more positive contributions than what Rania has done so far. And whether or not she wanted to be Queen, I don't know, but many people in her position do end up doing good works and becoming positive role models.
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  #58  
Old 01-10-2004, 07:48 PM
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LOL@this whole thread.

The way i see it is really simple.
Rania is the most beautiful Queen of one of the most poorest countries.
When she meets other royals,politicians,etc she feels inferior because she is a queen of a real poor country.
The only thing that makes her more notable then other royals is her looks.
QN is always gonna remain in western media,coz she is an American,Rania on the other hand is not and her only advantage are her looks,that's what's gonna keep media interested in her and in Jordan in general.Not that they're gonna get more financial support but every kind of a promotion is good for Jordan in my opinion.
I don't think living to lavishly is the right thing,but i do think that she should wear designer clothes coz looks is all she has and it's what keeps media focused on her and Jordan.If i lived in Jordan i would want my Quenn to look the way she does and to be prettier than others,best dressed, at least when she goes abroad.
It keeps media focused on her and that's the only thing that matters these days.
,she has to remain interesting to the media,It's simple as that.
I don't support them living in wealth in Jordan if their country is struggling.
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  #59  
Old 01-10-2004, 08:53 PM
bluetortuga
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I think Q. Rania will become the favorite "whipping girl" of the Middle Eastern media, just like P. Charles is the favorite "whipping boy" of the British Press. Charles earned that status because of his behavior outside of the public eye. He's a hardworker but has many complices that annoy the press, and they bash him for it. His reputation is far beyond repairable right now.

As for Q. Rania, I hope she will change her ways, and stop flaunting her wealth. There is a way to look good without flaunting it. She looks very bad to me flaunting designer clothers while the most Jordanians find it hard to buy basic items. If Jordan had an average standard of living comparable to countries in Europe, the Gulf, or the US, then it wouldn't look so bad. More discretion is needed on her part. She should ditch the animosity and try to learn as much as possible from Q. Noor.
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  #60  
Old 01-10-2004, 09:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by kiarasecretagent@Jan 10th, 2004 - 6:48 pm
LOL@this whole thread.

The way i see it is really simple.
Rania is the most beautiful Queen of one of the most poorest countries.
When she meets other royals,politicians,etc she feels inferior because she is a queen of a real poor country.
The only thing that makes her more notable then other royals is her looks.
QN is always gonna remain in western media,coz she is an American,Rania on the other hand is not and her only advantage are her looks,that's what's gonna keep media interested in her and in Jordan in general.Not that they're gonna get more financial support but every kind of a promotion is good for Jordan in my opinion.
I don't think living to lavishly is the right thing,but i do think that she should wear designer clothes coz looks is all she has and it's what keeps media focused on her and Jordan.If i lived in Jordan i would want my Quenn to look the way she does and to be prettier than others,best dressed, at least when she goes abroad.
It keeps media focused on her and that's the only thing that matters these days.
,she has to remain interesting to the media,It's simple as that.
I don't support them living in wealth in Jordan if their country is struggling.
No offence kiarasecretagent, but I do not agree with your comments.

Yes, Queen Rania is a beautiful woman, but so are many of the other royal women. Queen Silvia of Sweden was just as beautiful as Rania at her age, and in my opinion, is even more beautiful now. But Queen Silvia's looks did not prevent her from working hard for Sweden and promoting important causes. And to boot, she did not need to equip her closet completely with designer handbags, suits, evening gowns and shoes to do thi. She did this with dedication, commitment and a whole lot of heart.

To use Rania's looks as the sole reason why the rest of the world would be interested in or pay attention to Jordan is superficial and negates any intelligence in the world. There are lots of beautiful individuals everywhere but the rest of the world is not necessarily paying attention to these countries because of the beautiful people. There are clearly other issues, concerns and interests in Jordan that is maintaining world interest.

You can maintain interest in your country or your causes without having to rely on your physical appearance. That is a superficial cop out.

And I don't agree that Rania's looks are the only thing she has going for her. I've seen her in interviews and she seems well-versed enough that she could make a speech without embarassing herself, the King or her country. And not to be harsh, but if all Rania has going for her is her looks - which I don't believe, - than a better investment would not be another Louis Vuitton handbag or an Armani suit, but an education.
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