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  #21  
Old 01-07-2004, 06:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by madonna23@Jan 7th, 2004 - 4:47 pm
the thing is...she gets the press for a reason...i live in the states and rania's been on oprah, good morning america, etc. etc. but is that really her place? is that where her people want her to be? the reason we don't see asma and salma that much is because they're not doing model-like photo shoots for vogue...western media covers rania because she caters to them...

perhaps we can say that asma doesn't get coverage because she's the first lady of syria and syria does not have good relations with the west. what about morocco? morocco has EXTREMELY good relations at least with the states and yet we dont see salma and meryam doing photo shoots.
I have never been one to approve of Rania's image obession and money spending habits, but I have to admit that she does send a more realistic image of what most Jordanian Muslim woman are like--how they don't cover their hair, how they can be equal to their husbands and can be very powerful. I really appriciate the different representaion than the sterotyplical one that's been more prominent in the west so I have to admit that I some good comes out of her interviews with western media.
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  #22  
Old 01-07-2004, 08:03 PM
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I have Arab friends and they have mentioned that Queen Rania is not so much loved in the middle East as we all may think. Jordanians (not all) do not approve of her way of dressing and "exposure" to the West while Jordan has internal problems.
On the other hand i really like her and she has made Jordan "famous"or more known. She has tackled issues and her name is used by many charity forums, maybe the other ladies are jealous and gossip about her :P
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  #23  
Old 01-07-2004, 08:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lia@Jan 7th, 2004 - 7:03 pm
I have Arab friends and they have mentioned that Queen Rania is not so much loved in the middle East as we all may think. Jordanians (not all) do not approve of her way of dressing and "exposure" to the West while Jordan has internal problems.
On the other hand i really like her and she has made Jordan "famous"or more known. She has tackled issues and her name is used by many charity forums, maybe the other ladies are jealous and gossip about her :P
Jordan has always been well known for its strategic importance. Sure, she has made Jordan more well known to the average person by her way of dress, but having a glamerous, well known Queen does little to ameliorate the lives of the average Jordanian. At the end of the day, it is what they think tha matters. And people are not jealous of her. I think that is too simplistic a conclusion. They dislike her for more substantive reasons.

Sean
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  #24  
Old 01-07-2004, 08:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sean.~@Jan 7th, 2004 - 7:07 pm
Jordan has always been well known for its strategic importance. Sure, she has made Jordan more well known to the average person by her way of dress, but having a glamerous, well known Queen does little to ameliorate the lives of the average Jordanian. At the end of the day, it is what they think tha matters. And people are not jealous of her. I think that is too simplistic a conclusion. They dislike her for more substantive reasons.

Sean
With my friends we discussed the reasons that Jordanians didn't really like her and its true they are deeper than jealousy etc. The last part of my post was simply to mention Royal Ladies from other countries. (in few words a joke!&#33
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  #25  
Old 01-07-2004, 08:21 PM
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I was wondering if anyone can tell me some of the charities/organizations or causes that Rania represents in Jordan or internationally?

For example, in the latter part of her life, Princess Diana championed the eradication of landmines, a cause which Queen Noor later picked up and supported.

I think I've read in some threads here that Queen Rania is known for supporting women's rights in Jordan, what about other causes?
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  #26  
Old 01-07-2004, 10:40 PM
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if you go to her website you can get all the info.
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  #27  
Old 01-07-2004, 11:28 PM
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as far as rania being an example of a powerful muslim woman, haven't lalla meryam and asma assad done the same? they wear modern clothing and are visible to the public eye and chair many commitees...another example is sheika mozah who has opened many schools in qatar and chaired countless women's organizations even while wearing a veil (proof that a woman can have rights and wear the veil at the same time)...

these women however don't seek attention; they don't do photo shoots; they don't flaunt themselves in front of cameras.

the best thing that can explain my feelings about rania is the poll that just closed about what rania's greatest achievement so far was. an overwhelming majority voted for the "changing stereotypes about arab women" slot. and i agree. she has done that. but what else has she done? and haven't lalla meryam and asma assad done the same? just because they don't get the same amount of press coverage doesn't mean they haven't...

but this changing stereotypes thing has not benefited anyone except a couple of people who now say "oh, so arab women can dress like that...oh." has that benefited the average jordanian middle class person? has that improved his lifestyle? has that helped him get a job? has that helped him support his family and bring food to the table?

perhaps my criticism of rania is too harsh...after all, she is not the king. but it is because of what the media makes of her - as if she is spending all her time helping her people when she's really not.
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  #28  
Old 01-08-2004, 02:19 AM
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I'd like to mention one thing regarding the whole concept of how Rania has changed the stereotype/image of arab/muslim women.
Just because she wears fashionable western clothing does not automatically make her a role model to Muslim women who dont wish to be stereotyped. There are countless women out there who do cover their head and dont wear western clothing but are just as modern, indedpendent and educated as Rania, if not more so. I have trouble with some people assuming that just because a woman covers her head or wears traditional clothing, she's somehow not as modern as women who dont. Although a lot of arab women dont wear their traditional clothing, there are many non-arab Muslim countries out there where women wear their traditional dress every single day and are just as modern and educated. Speaking from a personal perspective, in Pakistan the traditional shalwar-kameez is worn by all women and most men. Although women wear western outfits on occasions, the traditional dress has fortunately managed to survive over the years as the popular choice.
I would hate to think that Rania's fashionable clothing is all it takes for some people to believe that she's changed stereotypes of Arab/Muslim women. Education, independence, and confidence are more important criterias I think.
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  #29  
Old 01-08-2004, 03:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lia@Jan 7th, 2004 - 7:03 pm
I have Arab friends and they have mentioned that Queen Rania is not so much loved in the middle East as we all may think. Jordanians (not all) do not approve of her way of dressing and "exposure" to the West while Jordan has internal problems.
On the other hand i really like her and she has made Jordan "famous"or more known. She has tackled issues and her name is used by many charity forums, maybe the other ladies are jealous and gossip about her :P
A few of my Jordanian friends have told me that the people in Jordan think that she's too snobby. That's the general impression that I got from them.

As for the amount of money that she spends on clothes. I'm sure that K Abdullah spends just as much on his suits and ties as she does on her dresses and purses. Men's clothing isn't as cheap as we all might think it is.

I don't know much about her to criticize. I just believe that she's making a mark for Arab women in her country and in the rest of the M. E.
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  #30  
Old 01-08-2004, 05:39 AM
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the problem is: rania publicises herself like a product. she goes to davos economics meeting (top international business people) to attract investors to jordan. the criticism is that this is taking care of the situation from above and not touching in any respect of her people, the palestinians that have been living in camps for generations.
indeed, to appear on ophra mirrors exactely this image: we are a western country, no poverty, american celebrety a la jacky o that mixes in husband's politics...exacetly what foreign investors want to see

i think it is probably important for jordan to get those investors ( i cant judge it in the end, i am not living there) but it is not, not at all ranias job to advertise her country in this way. its her husband's job. i am not sure whether one has to challenge ones country's ideals and traditions that much as rania does... look at lalla salma, i think she does the transition from traditional to modern with slightly less ado.
i sometimes have the feeling rania is much ado about nothing, or not much
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  #31  
Old 01-08-2004, 06:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by karolinabraganza@Jan 8th, 2004 - 4:39 am
the problem is: rania publicises herself like a product. she goes to davos economics meeting (top international business people) to attract investors to jordan. the criticism is that this is taking care of the situation from above and not touching in any respect of her people, the palestinians that have been living in camps for generations.
indeed, to appear on ophra mirrors exactely this image: we are a western country, no poverty, american celebrety a la jacky o that mixes in husband's politics...exacetly what foreign investors want to see

i think it is probably important for jordan to get those investors ( i cant judge it in the end, i am not living there) but it is not, not at all ranias job to advertise her country in this way. its her husband's job. i am not sure whether one has to challenge ones country's ideals and traditions that much as rania does... look at lalla salma, i think she does the transition from traditional to modern with slightly less ado.
i sometimes have the feeling rania is much ado about nothing, or not much
Now you are gettting into economics. Rania and Abudullah's economic policies haven't been that great, frankly. Their economic'vision' for Jordan is not in sync with the country's realities. That is, it is not possible for Jordan to become a Sillicon Valley. Moreover, selling off the country's economy to foreign investors who come in to take advantage of the country's cheap human resources and divert profits to shareholders in the West (as opposed to re-investing in the country) will not lead to Western style development (or any kind of development). They invest for import substituion purposes only. In short, their policies will make Jordan into a low wage Bantustan for Western multinational corporations.

With respect to the Free Trade Agreement with the US, the notion that a Third World, underdeveloped country can compete with the world's only economic and military superpower on an equal footing is Alice in Wonderland economics.

Just my views.

Sean.~
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  #32  
Old 01-08-2004, 02:32 PM
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Y this obession about Rania? who cares about wot she wears? As long as shes good 4 her country that's all that it matters, although she's goes over board in many ocassions when it comes to fashion, she certainly doesn't waist any time.
As far as am concerned many of the jordaian royal women (bsides rania) do alot for jordan as much as rania & probably more.


shy x
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  #33  
Old 01-08-2004, 02:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by shy@Jan 8th, 2004 - 1:32 pm
Y this obession about Rania? who cares about wot she wears? As long as shes good 4 her country that's all that it matters, although she's goes over board in many ocassions when it comes to fashion, she certainly doesn't waist any time.
As far as am concerned many of the jordaian royal women (bsides rania) do alot for jordan as much as rania & probably more.


shy x
The people of Jordan obviously care. And they would argue that she doesn't do all that much for them.
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  #34  
Old 01-08-2004, 02:44 PM
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Quote:
As far as am concerned many of the jordaian royal women (bsides rania) do alot for jordan as much as rania & probably more.
i agree shy... i think princess basma does a lot but rarely gets publicity...

as far as economics is concerned, i remember reading an article where a jordanian economist commented that the kingdom was trying to turn jordan into a "technological hub"...a sort of middle eastern singapore if you will...however, the economist said that this "new economy" should not be the primary focus as long as the "old economy" was falling apart...in other words, it's a little ridiculous to try to bring in internet cafes and the like a sizable part of the population does not have an adequete water supply.
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  #35  
Old 01-09-2004, 10:48 AM
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It seems to me that the much quoted "people of Jordan" never "like" any of their Kings' wives. It seems to me also that most of this poison is coming from the "chattering classes", as we call them in the UK, who are just jealous of these ordinary women who have been elevated to an extraordinary position.

Jordan may be "third world" but it is strategically very important. To have a King AND a Queen (particularly a Queen with excellent "Arab" credentials) to talk eloquently about the position of Jordan (and all those Jordanians who seem to hate them so much) AND the Palestinians on a world stage should be seen as a huge asset.

Like it or not, Jordan needs the Americans and whatever the King, Queen or anyone else believes, as long as they show up on Larry King and sound like sane, reasonable, non radical individuals they are helping to counter the mostly negative press that Arabs as a whole seem to receive in the West. Isn't that a good thing?

To twitter away about her alleged extravagance seems to me to be missing the Big Picture here. Let's face it, they did the same about Queen Noor and every other unfortunate woman who has married into a royal family and dares to dress well.

They'd make the same fuss if she turned up everywhere in the same clothes!! Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

So you do what YOU think is right Your Majesty!
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  #36  
Old 01-09-2004, 12:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sean.~@Jan 6th, 2004 - 2:07 pm
Jordan is not a democarcy. The Kig's regime is all powerful. There wasn't even a Parliament for two years, as it had been shut down by Abdullah. In any event, the RF does the Bedouin tribal leaders in Parliament favours and, in return, they vote the way the RF wants. Quid pro quo.
After the discussion here and some other threads in this very forum, I am surprised to infer that the Jordanian royal family seems a bit "corrupt." Has the family always been like this?
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  #37  
Old 01-09-2004, 02:48 PM
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Quote:
It seems to me that the much quoted "people of Jordan" never "like" any of their Kings' wives. It seems to me also that most of this poison is coming from the "chattering classes", as we call them in the UK, who are just jealous of these
ordinary women who have been elevated to an extraordinary position.
You would be wrong. Not all the wives of Kings have been disliked. And it isn't only the "chattering classes" (which is only comprised of the Hashemites and their cronies). It is the average man on the street. Certainly the Palestinians in refugee camps do not belong to the Chattering classes. Neither do the Beduoin leaders who stopped her from promulgating laws. Jordanians are not parochial simpeltons. They know that they are living under an often brutal and authoritirarian regime. After all, they experience it every day. Moreover, they are not oblivious to Rania's spending. They have eyes and can cmpare and contrast her lifestyle with their own.

Quote:
Jordan may be "third world" but it is strategically very important.
Pray tell, who denied that? However, you should ask yourself that if Jordan would be of the same strategic interest if the Israeli-Palestinian conflict was resolved, and a separate, viable Palestinian state were to be established.

Quote:
To have a King AND a Queen (particularly a Queen with excellent "Arab" credentials) to talk eloquently about the position of Jordan (and all those Jordanians who seem to hate them so much) AND the Palestinians on a world stage should be seen as a huge asset.
Eloquent speaking skills does not a good ruler make. They can talk all they want, but it is all talk. Talk (or spin) does not ameliorate the lives of these people. Neither does their unrealistic economic policies. You mentioned Jordan's geostrategic importance above and I again ask you if you think Jordan would be of the same geostrategic importance if peace were established between the Israelis and the Palestinians. This may be the reason why the Jordanians haven't done anything substantive to bring a Palestinian state to fruition (Do you know visions of the first Camp David Accords and of Oslo?). To put it bluntly, there is money to be made from the conflict. Egypt alone receives billions. It is one hing for Rania et. al to talk about the Palestinians on American talk shows and quite another for them to do anything substantive. Believe me, the Palestinians are no fans of the Hashemites. They know the role of the King's family in the events of 1948.* They know that Jordan sold them out.* Talk must be backed up with action.


Quote:
Like it or not, Jordan needs the Americans and whatever the King, Queen or anyone else believes, as long as they show up on Larry King and sound like sane, reasonable, non radical individuals they are helping to counter the mostly negative press that Arabs as a whole seem to receive in the West. Isn't that a good thing?
LOL!!! Showing up on Larry King is not going to keep them form possibly being overthrown by their own people. Only listening to public opinion will do that. Just like in the west where a government that doesn't adhere to the wishes of the electorate is voted out. Moreover, just because someone sounds like they are sane, reasonable, and non-radical does not necessarily mean that they are (and I'm not necessarily say that they are not any of these thing). Furthermore, why should the Jordanian people have to put up with them simply because the biased Western press likes their corrupt and authoritarian royal famioly, which represents an often brutal regime with a terrible human rights record? You need to get your priorities straight.

Quote:
To twitter away about her alleged extravagance seems to me to be missing the Big Picture here.
It certainly is not missing the big picture, and I daresay you are taking a very simplistic approach to this. Her extravagance (whether real or perceived) is a sore spot for many people, including those in the West, which provides aid to Jordan. It could have serious ramifications. Look at the Pahalivis, Saddam Hussein, and even the Romanovs. Indeed, although Westerners were taken in by their galm, when it came time to give them a place to go into exile , there were no takers. Similar situation for the Pahalavis. In short, extravgence coupled with authoritarianism is never a good combination.

Quote:
Let's face it, they did the same about Queen Noor and every other unfortunate woman who has married into a royal family and dares to dress well.
That's actually not true. Do you even know all of the women in the royal family? For the most part, all of the Hashemite women dress well, yet none of them garner the kind of criticism that Rania does. The reason is because Jordanians are cognizant of the fact that there is a difference between dressing well and acting like a spendthrift fashion model.

Quote:

They'd make the same fuss if she turned up everywhere in the same clothes!! Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
Oh, and how do you know that? You are again taking a your comment quite insulting. Is it based on the fact that they are Arab? Jordanians are not a petty or mean spirited people. They do have a right to hold their leaders to account, you know.

Quote:
So you do what YOU think is right Your Majesty!
Does that include the human rights abuses, censorship, denying of rights to the majority, etc. <snort>?
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  #38  
Old 01-09-2004, 10:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by brian@Jan 9th, 2004 - 9:48 am

So you do what YOU think is right Your Majesty&#33;
Yes, do it and when people will try to overthrown you just kill ten thousand of them like your father did.
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  #39  
Old 01-10-2004, 01:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by synthia+Jan 9th, 2004 - 9:14 pm--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (synthia @ Jan 9th, 2004 - 9:14 pm)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-brian@Jan 9th, 2004 - 9:48 am

So you do what YOU think is right Your Majesty&#33;
Yes, do it and when people will try to overthrown you just kill ten thousand of them like your father did. [/b][/quote]
Good point. I&#39;ll say it again: Too many people are often blinded by the glitter and glamour of royalty and are oblivious of the shortcomings of those they put on pedestals. It is great to be a royal fan, but it is also important to know who the key players *really* are and how the system works (and has worked). I think it is very important to ask how and why things are the way they are and as to who benefits from the current set-up.

Sean.~
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  #40  
Old 01-10-2004, 03:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by synthia@Jan 9th, 2004 - 9:14 pm
Yes, do it and when people will try to overthrown you just kill ten thousand of them like your father did.
whose father are you referring to?
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