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  #41  
Old 08-19-2005, 07:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by polop
No, I won't hang her;how about shooting her??:p Iam just kidding.
I think comments like that are exactly what I mean when I say harsh and judgemental, regardless of the intention. But that is my opinion only. someone else may see it as a statement made out of love or something...

And I do think you are expressing what you sincerely feel (even while you want to laugh it off). And that is fine. If the comment is sincere, at least you are honest about it.

(in my own opinion, it smacks of resentment and perhaps envy -- which is a core issue. But I again would not know that, as I do not know you; ultimately it is not my business).

But ok, not a problem -- we're all human and subject to all human traits: I hope those people who would dare to judge or 'test' you and others for what is done/not done would be more generous... :)
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  #42  
Old 08-19-2005, 08:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lillia
I think comments like that are exactly what I mean when I say harsh and judgemental, regardless of the intention.

And I do think you are expressing what you sincerely feel (even while you want to laugh it off). And that is fine. If the comment is sincere, at least you are honest about it.

(in my own opinion, it smacks of resentment and perhaps envy -- which is a core issue. But I again would not know that, as I do not know you; ultimately it is not my business).

But ok, not a problem -- we're all human and subject to all human traits: I hope those people who would dare to judge or 'test' you and others for what is done/not done would be more generous... :)
Do you really think that Iam such a cruel person?I really was joking and there is nothing I can do to make you believe me.Yes,I do think that Rania does not dress appropriately,but that does not mean,by any extent,that I want to shoot her???!!!!! In the end, I can only voice my opinion,and you can interpret it however you want.First you jokingly ask me do I want to hang her for it,I try to laugh it off,but still Iam the vilan.I was honest about anything,because I was kidding!!!!!Iam sorry,that you think of me in those terms,but I really have tried to explain my self again,again to you,but you still think of me as someone who likes to kill people and criticize them for no reason and there is nothing I can do about that.
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  #43  
Old 08-19-2005, 09:23 PM
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Ok -- sorry if I upset you. I was not trying to do that or be cruel either. That was not the intention. :(

I do not think of you or anyone in such bad terms (certainly not) -- but could you imagine if someone that I was referring to on these boards actually read such a thing? they would probably flip out or something (or at minimum their feelings might get hurt):)

I do appreciate you being honest though and addressing my question openly. Thanks much for that:p

I'm sure you'd agree that there is not much wrong with a healthy discussion on something...:)
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  #44  
Old 08-19-2005, 09:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lillia
Ok -- sorry if I upset you. I was not trying to do that. I do not think of you or anyone in such bad terms (certainly not) -- but could you imagine if someone that I was referring to on these boards acutally read such a thing? they'd probably flip or something (or at minimum their feelings might get hurt):)

I do appreciate you being honest though and addressing my question. Thanks for that:p
Iam glad we cleared that up!:)
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  #45  
Old 08-20-2005, 01:01 PM
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Lillia, your posts are spot on.

"Well,it's not like she should get along with the Iranian government,but it's interesting how she participates more in western events.Anyways,just wondering,why won't they like her?"

Why should she have to get involved with such a repressed and backwards country? I imagine the Iraninas wouldn't like her becuase she isn't a submissive woman who will let herself be walked all over.

"That is an interesting point. She has visited the refugee camps in the Balkans(?). Also QN has done her share of visiting refugees camps, so maybe QR will learn to do the same. I think that would make a huge statement and get the attention of the world."
Iran also springs to mind.

"She is after all a Muslim Queen(again,many people disagree with this...)and hence, she should be held accountable for how she represents Islam and Jordan.Ofcourse,she is not the sole representer of Islam,many us contribute to it reputation,but she is the Queen and she has the power to influence other leaders and people."
Rania does more good for Islam's reputation than many other muslim' out there.

"I hope you realize that when I said that she is ungreatful,I meant she doesn't realize what she has"
Unless you know her personally you cannot possibly make a statement like that.

"Great.:) I think the problem with her wearing a swimsuit is that,she is a Muslim Queen.Most people are not Queens or Kings!:p :)"
So what? She doesn't parade around the streets of Amman in a swimsuit. she wears one far away from prying eyes. It is not her fault the paparazzi likes to hunt people as though they were prey.

Furthermore what's funny about joking about shooting someone.,
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  #46  
Old 08-20-2005, 04:59 PM
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[QUOTE=Little_star]Lillia, your posts are spot on.
Why should she have to get involved with such a repressed and backwards country? I imagine the Iraninas wouldn't like her becuase she isn't a submissive woman who will let herself be walked all over.

Why is Iran a "repressed and a backwards" country??? Have you personally visited the place,asked woman and childern what life really is like?What are you basing your judgement upon??? How are Iranian women letting men walk all over them??????It's very judgemental of you to say something like this!Just because people don't live like you doesn't mean they are being oppressed and being walked upon.I highly recommend you reconsider what you said.

"She is after all a Muslim Queen(again,many people disagree with this...)and hence, she should be held accountable for how she represents Islam and Jordan.Ofcourse,she is not the sole representer of Islam,many us contribute to it reputation,but she is the Queen and she has the power to influence other leaders and people."
Rania does more good for Islam's reputation than many other muslim' out there.

She is suppose to,she's a queen.

"I hope you realize that when I said that she is ungreatful,I meant she doesn't realize what she has"
Unless you know her personally you cannot possibly make a statement like that.

And I suppose you do???????

"Great.:) I think the problem with her wearing a swimsuit is that,she is a Muslim Queen.Most people are not Queens or Kings!:p :)"
So what? She doesn't parade around the streets of Amman in a swimsuit. she wears one far away from prying eyes. It is not her fault the paparazzi likes to hunt people as though they were prey.

Furthermore what's funny about joking about shooting someone?
There is nothing funny about that.I assume you forgot to read the whole conversation,because I was asked "do you want to hang her for it?:p "Why I suppose you find that funny???????
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  #47  
Old 08-20-2005, 05:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Little_star
Why should she have to get involved with such a repressed and backwards country? I imagine the Iraninas wouldn't like her becuase she isn't a submissive woman who will let herself be walked all over.
Do you know all Iranians to know that they won't like her because she's not submissive? More importantly, do you know all Iranians so well that you find it easy to lump them all as repressive and backwards?
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  #48  
Old 08-20-2005, 07:16 PM
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I agree that that was a sweeping generalization, but I don't think it was meant to be. Perhaps Little Star meant the theocratic government, not an entire population.

On another note, I've been reading an American journalist's book about her experiences in Iran and with Iranians over the years, and plenty of the women there tend to be anything but! :)
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  #49  
Old 08-20-2005, 08:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alicky
On another note, I've been reading an American journalist's book about her experiences in Iran and with Iranians over the years, and plenty of the women there tend to be anything but! :)
Definitely. There are plenty of successful and independent women in Iran working in all kinds of fields, everything from running their own wine company (in Iran) to directing/producing movies that have bagged international awards, participating/representing their country in a wide range of sports (football, chess, racing etc.; two Iranian women just climbed the peak of the Mount Everest this year) and the list just goes on. From what I gather many of them seem adventurous and strong-willed and are far from being "caged".
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  #50  
Old 08-20-2005, 08:34 PM
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totally agree - la la. i think its unfair to label all women of a particular country or ethnic group as oppressed. women from iran, saudi arabia, and other "backward" countries are very powerful. sometimes they may not be powerful according to western tradition and ways but they are powerful in their own way.
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  #51  
Old 08-21-2005, 11:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madonna23
totally agree - la la. i think its unfair to label all women of a particular country or ethnic group as oppressed. women from iran, saudi arabia, and other "backward" countries are very powerful. sometimes they may not be powerful according to western tradition and ways but they are powerful in their own way.
Exactly! :) And if "someone" doesn't wish to visit these countries becuase they will be stepped all over first needs to make themselves so strong that no one should be able to walk all over them;however most importantly that person doesn't deserve to visit these countries and experience their rich cultures first hand.:)
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  #52  
Old 08-21-2005, 12:09 PM
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He he he Too true Alicky!:) :p



Quote:
Originally Posted by Alicky
Trust me, I don't think she would have to compete with Laura Bush lol! :)
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  #53  
Old 08-21-2005, 12:21 PM
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No I'm not. So please don't suggest otherwise. The statement that was made by another forum member that QR doesn't seem to visit many Arab countries. My response indeed it doesn't 'seem' so also she doesn't Visit North Africa (Although they aren't Arabi in origin, they are Muslims. This doesn't imply that QR should visit solely Muslim Coutries, or take preference over them more than others.

[quote=Little_star
"She doesn't travel to North Africa either, they're Muslims too. A
Are you implying she should only visit muslim countries or visit those countries the most? [/QUOTE]
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  #54  
Old 08-21-2005, 12:27 PM
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Nicely quoted Polop!:) True Allah s.w.t. did say that.


Quote:
Originally Posted by polop
Doesn't how much she has done reflect what are the results?I also failed to understand what you found harsh?Was it that I said she is ungrateful?Well,to me she doesn't seem to do enough for her country and region.We can not compare her to Queen Elizabeth,for example,because Queen Elizabeth is a paid emplyee of the govenment,doesn't rule over anyone, and most importantly belongs to a developed first world country.As for her trying to "attract" other men,I can see where someone would come up with a notion like that.She is after all a Muslim Queen(again,many people disagree with this...)and hence, she should be held accountable for how she represents Islam and Jordan.Ofcourse,she is not the sole representer of Islam,many us contribute to it reputation,but she is the Queen and she has the power to influence other leaders and people.So for her to dress in some very revealing dresses,makes people think,what could be the reason??You're right, I don't know Rania personally,but actions speak louder than words.How much has she given back to Jordan?I don't mean,computer facilities etc.How many times has she visited Palestine comparable to U.S,London,Paris etc?There is no real way to know how she feels about her destiny except how she responds to her life and fortunes.I should make it clear,that I don't think that she is "ungreatful" I just believe that she doesn't know what she has and what others lack.She probably has millions and millions of dollars but I've never seen her go to places that no one else notices.I hope you realize that when I said that she is ungreatful,I meant she doesn't realize what she has.In Islam Allah says that life is a test,I test some by giving them plenty,while giving others nothing.I personally believe,when you are given $10, $8 belong to others,it the matter of when we realize it.My intentions were not make you sad or think that Iam someone who loves criticizing Queen Rania.It's unfortunate that every time this happens.:)
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  #55  
Old 08-21-2005, 12:37 PM
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Submission doesn't necessarily mean that one is walked upon.:) Just as you said that Polop ought to be careful with her comments as they obviously offended yourself (although that isn't what Polop intended.) Please upon that same note do the same. There are some members whom might be Irani or Afghani and they might take exception to your calling their countries repressed and backward.:)



Quote:
Originally Posted by Little_star
Lillia, your posts are spot on.

"Well,it's not like she should get along with the Iranian government,but it's interesting how she participates more in western events.Anyways,just wondering,why won't they like her?"

Why should she have to get involved with such a repressed and backwards country? I imagine the Iraninas wouldn't like her becuase she isn't a submissive woman who will let herself be walked all over.

"That is an interesting point. She has visited the refugee camps in the Balkans(?). Also QN has done her share of visiting refugees camps, so maybe QR will learn to do the same. I think that would make a huge statement and get the attention of the world."
Iran also springs to mind.

"She is after all a Muslim Queen(again,many people disagree with this...)and hence, she should be held accountable for how she represents Islam and Jordan.Ofcourse,she is not the sole representer of Islam,many us contribute to it reputation,but she is the Queen and she has the power to influence other leaders and people."
Rania does more good for Islam's reputation than many other muslim' out there.

"I hope you realize that when I said that she is ungreatful,I meant she doesn't realize what she has"
Unless you know her personally you cannot possibly make a statement like that.

"Great.:) I think the problem with her wearing a swimsuit is that,she is a Muslim Queen.Most people are not Queens or Kings!:p :)"
So what? She doesn't parade around the streets of Amman in a swimsuit. she wears one far away from prying eyes. It is not her fault the paparazzi likes to hunt people as though they were prey.

Furthermore what's funny about joking about shooting someone.,
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  #56  
Old 08-21-2005, 10:24 PM
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At least somebody is open minded!:)
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  #57  
Old 08-22-2005, 05:18 AM
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"Why is Iran a "repressed and a backwards" country??? Have you personally visited the place,asked woman and childern what life really is like?What are you basing your judgement upon??? How are Iranian women letting men walk all over them??????It's very judgemental of you to say something like this!Just because people don't live like you doesn't mean they are being oppressed and being walked upon.I highly recommend you reconsider what you said."

One of my closest friends is Iranian, her family feld the country becuase they were being persecuted by the Government, her uncle "disappeared". Moreover a cousin of mine worked for an aid agency there. So before you jump to conclusions I base my opinion on actual knowledge of the country.

"And I suppose you do???????"
Not at all. Whcih is why I'd rather not make rash and condescending statements abotu whether she is grateful for her position or not.

"I agree that that was a sweeping generalization, but I don't think it was meant to be. Perhaps Little Star meant the theocratic government, not an entire population"
Thanks Alicky, that was my intention.

"On another note, I've been reading an American journalist's book about her experiences in Iran and with Iranians over the years, and plenty of the women there tend to be anything but! :)"
What people do behind closed doors though is not relevant. the fact is if people were to do the same things in public they would most certainly be arrested for it.

"totally agree - la la. i think its unfair to label all women of a particular country or ethnic group as oppressed. women from iran, saudi arabia, and other "backward" countries are very powerful. sometimes they may not be powerful according to western tradition and ways but they are powerful in their own way."
Women in many countries, like iran and Saudi Arabia are anything but powerful. They don't even have the right to choose what they wear in public. One of the most fundamental of ideals that people in many countries take for granted.

"At least somebody is open minded!:)"

Being open-minded has nothing to do with it. Denying women basic human rights is wrong. Pretending that it is ok, becuase they're "culturally different" is not sufficient.
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  #58  
Old 08-22-2005, 10:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Little_star
"One of my closest friends is Iranian, her family feld the country becuase they were being persecuted by the Government, her uncle "disappeared". Moreover a cousin of mine worked for an aid agency there. So before you jump to conclusions I base my opinion on actual knowledge of the country.
The real word being "ONE."Your friend,with all due respect,doesn't represent Iran or Iranian ethics and laws.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Little_star
Not at all. Whcih is why I'd rather not make rash and condescending statements abotu whether she is grateful for her position or not.
Once again,if you wish to highlight what I said 100 years ago,you can do so.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Little_star
Women in many countries, like iran and Saudi Arabia are anything but powerful. They don't even have the right to choose what they wear in public. One of the most fundamental of ideals that people in many countries take for granted. .
How would you know how women live in Saudi Arabia?People like you only look at the "Niqab" and judge that the woman must be oppressed and abused.Many women are happy living their lives under those "veils."They have a right to chose what they wear,it's just that many women wish to follow Islamic guidelines.If you would know,Saudi Arabia,Dubia,Kuwait etc. have opened exclucive shopping malls for women,where they can shop in their own privacy,along with other women.These malls are especially made for women and their shopping needs.Furthermore, Iran has a nuclear program,which would have never been possible if it were not for the cooperation from intelligent and many hard working women.In Kuwait,the rate at which women graduate from collage has reached to 60%.Unlike U.S,Pakistan already has had a female prime minister.Many of these women are accomplished and happy with their lives.I think that these women have the right to choose what they wish to wear,it's the western society who doesn't agree with it,and hence,declares that these women should able to wear more of what they want.We should let them live the way they want.If you really want to help women in these countries,help them in other beneficial causes than arguing about something so meaningless and endless.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Little_star
Being open-minded has nothing to do with it. Denying women basic human rights is wrong. Pretending that it is ok, becuase they're "culturally different" is not sufficient.
And when did you get your degree in Human Rights?No body is denying these women "basic human rights..."Many women in Arab world are not even required to work,because their husbands provide everything for them.If you really wish to shed light upon human rights issues, go to Afghanistan,Iraq,Palestine,Africa etc.Don't look at women in countries where they are not even required to pay taxes,cause their countries are so damn rich.
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  #59  
Old 08-22-2005, 12:38 PM
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"The real word being "ONE."Your friend,with all due respect,doesn't represent Iran or Iranian ethics and laws."

Thanks to her though I've made alot of Iranian friends with similar stories, people who fled for vaious political and social reasons, it's incredibly sad what so many many families have had to give up and leave behind. Moreover I forgot to mention I'm involved with a legal organisation that helps asylum seekers, alot of whom are Iranian.

"Once again,if you wish to highlight what I said 100 years ago,you can do so. "
You're fond of exaggerating it seems. As it stands I posted on the newest posts since the last time I logged in.

"How would you know how women live in Saudi Arabia?"
The vast amount of friends and family I have living in the country are a bit of an indication, not forgetting my own experiences when visiting.

"People like you only look at the "Niqab" and judge that the woman must be oppressed and abused.Many women are happy living their lives under those "veils."They have a right to chose what they wear,it's just that many women wish to follow Islamic guidelines."
They don't have any choice!!!They'd be arrested if they stepped out in public in anything else. And since when has a niqab or an abaya been an "Islamic guideline". Scrap that, since when has Islam had any sort of uniform at all.

"In Kuwait,the rate at which women graduate from collage has reached to 60%"
And how many of them actually go on to get a job? How many of them find that those job opportunities they've worked so hard for just don't exist. There are several Arab countries with excellent education opportunities and no jobs for women afterwards.

"Unlike U.S,Pakistan already has had a female prime minister."
Who besides from lining her own pockets and stealing the nation's wealth did nothnig to help further the cause of women in Pakistan.

".I think that these women have the right to choose what they wish to wear,it's the western society who doesn't agree with it,and hence,declares that these women should able to wear more of what they want.We should let them live the way they want."
Many many muslim women are forced to wear a headscarf or abaya by family and as for the Saudis it's against the law for them to step out of their homes in anything else. You talk about choice but those women don't have any.

"No body is denying these women "basic human rights..."Many women in Arab world are not even required to work,because their husbands provide everything for them"
And many of those women wouldn't be allowed to work even if they wished to.
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  #60  
Old 08-22-2005, 02:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Little_star
"Thanks to her though I've made alot of Iranian friends with similar stories, people who fled for vaious political and social reasons, it's incredibly sad what so many many families have had to give up and leave behind. Moreover I forgot to mention I'm involved with a legal organisation that helps asylum seekers, alot of whom are Iranian.
Good for you.Like you mentioned,you work for an organization that helps asylum seekers,so you only get to hear the bad and the sad.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Little_star
You're fond of exaggerating it seems. As it stands I posted on the newest posts since the last time I logged in.
Iam not fond of exaggerating,however I do like to highlight the FACTS.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Little_star
The vast amount of friends and family I have living in the country are a bit of an indication, not forgetting my own experiences when visiting.
You say your experinences,I guess it can't be that bad,after all,you visted these places and you're alive?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Little_star
They don't have any choice!!!They'd be arrested if they stepped out in public in anything else. And since when has a niqab or an abaya been an "Islamic guideline". Scrap that, since when has Islam had any sort of uniform at all.
Islam doesn't have a "uniform," however,it does have a dress code.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Little_star
And how many of them actually go on to get a job? How many of them find that those job opportunities they've worked so hard for just don't exist. There are several Arab countries with excellent education opportunities and no jobs for women afterwards.
Many of them.And if that really was the case,as you say,60% of the women wouldn't graduate from universities,they would sit at home.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Little_star
Many many muslim women are forced to wear a headscarf or abaya by family and as for the Saudis it's against the law for them to step out of their homes in anything else. You talk about choice but those women don't have any.
Have you ever wondered why are these "laws" put into effect?Are they there just to torture women?You make Arab leaders seem like the most cruel and selfish people on the face of this planet,and they are not.In Islam the husband is required to give his wife a present after they get married,known as "Haq Meher" which you would know about.Again,what you might find as freedom,might seem like utter prison to some of these women.As you would know,asylum is granted not because of "cultural abuse" but because of safety.Many of your friends must have not been safe in their home countries,and that has nothing to do with wearing a "Niqab."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Little_star
And many of those women wouldn't be allowed to work even if they wished to.
Why would you want to work if you are getting money from your husband to go shopping???Middle East countries are not prisons,women live there and won't change their lives for the world.Many women in U.S are being abused by their husbands or boyfriends, but that doesn't represent the values and ethics of U.S.Similary,you shouldn't label a whole society based on a few persons opinions and views.
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