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  #121  
Old 01-07-2004, 05:15 AM
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Humera you are wrong if you think that this lavish lifestyle of JRF doesn’t have end. Corruption is the main problem that is discussed by all western governments. Lavish lifestyle of Saddam Hussein was several times mention by American government (even when they tried to make case for war). As mention by Sean, Shah of Iran is other example. People of Iran had no other choice just to follow Islamic fundamentalist Chommeni. Iran until today remains Islamic country. Rania lavish lifestyle is serious problem. Those behaviours have to be stop otherwise will cost other problems.  And should be address. After all Jordan lives from our western money.
I believe you're misinterpreting my words Asma.
My comments were specifically regarding Queen Rania's extravagance. I wasn't discussing the lavish lifestyle of the entire Jordanian royal family. Nor did I ever say it wasn't a problem.
Im no fan of the Shah of Iran either. With him, the problem wasnt just lavishness. Not only did he impose his ideas on his people, forcing women to dress in a western manner for example, but he was quite a hypocrite in my opinion. The backlash of the Iranians was entirely natural.

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PS: I have no problem what so ever with you repeating yourself. We can be happy that we can express ourselves freely. In Jordan LTR is cut of service.
That is unfortunate.
As for me repeating myself, its all growing a little too tiresome for me after 5 pages of sounding like a broken record.

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One more thing. Give me the name of First lady (from whole world) that spend more money that Rania.
I never claimed that Rania doesn't spend as much as some other first ladies.
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  #122  
Old 01-07-2004, 05:31 AM
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  #123  
Old 01-07-2004, 03:51 PM
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*sigh*
I dont see why I'd contradict myself. I never set out to defend every single thing about Queen Rania. Like I've said before, I was appalled by the article about the gold shoes. Why would I even post it here if I wanted to defend her extravagance.
Im still making the points i've wanted to make from the start. All I can say is that being away from this thread has made it easier for me to take the emotion out of the whole thing...its not my aim to really change anyone's opinion anyway. I know there are people out there who are just as stubborn as I am.
  #124  
Old 01-07-2004, 03:58 PM
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  #125  
Old 01-07-2004, 04:00 PM
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  #126  
Old 01-07-2004, 04:31 PM
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I love this forum. It is getting better and better. I don’t know if you notice but in ME section is more guests than before. After all, it is very interesting reading of different opinions, arguments and issues as whole. Internet is easy and inexpensive way to get info and to learn.
  #127  
Old 01-08-2004, 02:59 AM
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Originally posted by Sean.~@Jan 7th, 2004 - 3:00 pm
Well, just compare and contrast all of of your posts in this thread and the contradictions will become evident.  I'll take your word that you are less emotional now though.  Although, personally, IMO the likes of Rania are hardly worth getting emotional over. Too bad people (and I'm not necessarily referring to you)can not get emotional over the plight of the Jordanian people, particularly those in Amman's squalid refugee camps.

Sean.~
Like i've said before, I never made an outright claim that Rania's extravagance was okay. While I did defend certain aspects of her spending, its because I believe its part of her role as a queen. But I also do remember saying from the beginning that she could easily afford to tone down/recycle her wardrobe. Outright criticism isnt really my thing especially when I dont know for a fact how much she's spending or what the big picture's like, nor do I live in the Middle East or have much familiarity with Middle Eastern media which might shed some light on why she's criticized so much.
But I have become more aware that Rania's glamourous image seems increasingly superficial. While I do like her, from what I've read and heard more recently Im somewhat turned off by the fact that she seems to be catering this image specifically to the western media. Its not the best way of garnering credibility or respect i think. Although you have to admit that most western media doesnt seem to care. The middle eastern media might be a different story.
  #128  
Old 01-08-2004, 03:17 AM
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Originally posted by Sean.~@Jan 7th, 2004 - 2:58 pm
That wasn't her question. She was asking you to name one first lady in the world (just one) who spends more than Rania (whether in reality or perception).

Sean.~
Well thats what I meant, I dont know of any other woman who spends as much as Rania (how ever much that is)
It wouldn't really be possible for a first lady of a democratic country to really get away with that sort of extravagance. Princess Diana was a very stylish woman but she recycled her clothing frequently. Plus she was very natural and didnt come across as a clotheshorse.
As for monarchies in the Middle East, most of their women aren't as visible as Rania is so I wouldnt know.
The only other comparison I can think of are the Pahlevis of Iran. But that was before I was born so I dont exactly know how extravagant their women were or how much criticism they received. Empress Farah was certainly dripping with price-less jewels
  #129  
Old 01-08-2004, 03:27 AM
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  #130  
Old 01-08-2004, 03:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sean.~@Jan 8th, 2004 - 2:27 am


I was young then too, but am quite familiar with the ME and Iran (particularly the Mossadeq years). The Pahalavi's were criticized for their spending in general, but it was more for things like Persopolis, the coronation, and the sending of caviar every year to the various European royals etc. Sure they spent on clothes etc., too, but Farah was nothing like Rania in perceived spending or style. Moreover, Iran was/is an oil rich country. Jordan is dependent on foreign aid.

Sean. ~
[/quote]
Sean--i agree with you that Rania is acting like she comes a very rich country by the way she dresses and acts, but I don't think your comparison of her and the Iranian royal family is fair. I too wasn't born when the Shah was in power, but my parents were familiar with the Shah's lavish lifestyle and it was obvious to people around the world that the Shah and his wife spent extravigant amount of money when there were very poor people in his country. And wasn't the Shah overthrown?
  #131  
Old 01-08-2004, 03:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by nicole@Jan 8th, 2004 - 2:39 pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean.~,Jan 8th, 2004 - 2:27 am
I was young then too, but am quite familiar with the ME and Iran (particularly the Mossadeq years). The Pahalavi's were criticized for their spending in general, but it was more for things like Persopolis, the coronation, and the sending of caviar every year to the various European royals etc. Sure they spent on clothes etc., too, but Farah was nothing like Rania in perceived spending or style. Moreover, Iran was/is an oil rich country. Jordan is dependent on foreign aid.

Sean. ~

Sean--i agree with you that Rania is acting like she comes a very rich country by the way she dresses and acts, but I don't think your comparison of her and the Iranian royal family is fair. I too wasn't born when the Shah was in power, but my parents were familiar with the Shah's lavish lifestyle and it was obvious to people around the world that the Shah and his wife spent extravigant amount of money when there were very poor people in his country. And wasn't the Shah overthrown?
[/quote]
Er, I wasn't comparing her to the Shah per se. I said the Shah spent money on things like Persopolis (which was one of the most extravagent royal affairs ever), his coronation, and sending caviar to the various European royals every year etc. Thus I hardly painted him to be some kind of stingy miser. That being said, Farah did not have the same kind of dress as Rania. She was more conservative. Moreover, sure there were (and are) poor people in Iran. However, Iran was nnot as poor as Jordan, as it had/has oil. Finally, yes, the Shah was overthrown. If you follow the thread, you will see that is the point I've been making. The Shah was overthrown because he was completely out of touch with his people, his spending, his policies, etc. Rania et al would be wise not to make the same mistakes. Unfortunately, by the looks of things they haven't really learnt from history.
  #132  
Old 01-08-2004, 04:04 PM
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No, Rania and Abdullah did not learn for the history. Just recently Pentagon made fun of them, too. Pentagon asked in some king of poll what do people think; will Arafat first kill or Jordan royalty overthrown.
  #133  
Old 01-08-2004, 06:35 PM
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I can't imagine the Pentagon conducting such a poll, so could you explain further?
  #134  
Old 01-08-2004, 06:54 PM
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I will try to find some article about it. It was just recently. I think in September before Ablullah trip to US.
  #135  
Old 01-08-2004, 07:01 PM
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There are many articles about it. Just do search through Yahoo. I took first one so you can see it.



Pentagon plans to predict terrorist acts through online betting

WASHINGTON (AFP) Jul 29, 2003
The Pentagon plans to let online traders bet on the likelihood that Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat might be assassinated or that Jordan's King Abdullah II might be overthrown, as part of an effort to predict and prevent terrorist acts.
The scenarios are being developed by the Defense Advanced Research Project Agency (DARPA), which funds Pentagon research projects, under an experimental program known as Future Markets Applied to Prediction, or FutureMAP.

The agency is betting that trading in the futures contracts, modelled on the type of speculative transactions common in commodity markets, will boost traditional intelligence methods.

Lawmakers and media commentators have assailed those methods since the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks on New York and the Pentagon.

"Futures markets have proven themselves to be good at predicting such things as elections results; they are often better than expert opinions," the agency said in a statement Monday.

But US Senators Ron Wyden of Oregon and Byron Dorgan of North Dakota, both Democrats, said they wanted the program stopped before it starts registering traders on August 1.

"The idea of a federal betting parlor on atrocities and terrorism is ridiculous and grotesque," Wyden, who sits on the Senate Intelligence Committee, told reporters Monday.

Wyden has been prominent among congressional critics of another DARPA program, Terrorism Information Awareness (TIA), a computer surveillance initiative that raised concerns about invasions of individuals' privacy.

He said the new "Policy Analysis Market" trading scheme is overseen by TIA chief retired admiral John Poindexter, a central figure in the Iran-Contra scandal, in which US officials illegally funded Nicaraguan rebels with proceeds from also-illegal arms sales to Iran in the mid-1980s.

Dorgan described the Internet scheme as "unbelievably stupid."

"How would you feel if you were the King of Jordan and you learned the US defense department was taking bets on your being overthrown within a year?" he added, noting that Jordan has long been a US ally.

In much the same way as Middle East analysts have used petroleum futures contract prices to predict events in the region, DARPA's contracts would focus on "the economic, civil, and military futures of Egypt, Jordan, Iran, Iraq, Israel, Saudi Arabia, Syria, and Turkey and the impact of US involvement with each," according to the agency's "Policy Analysis Market" Web site.

Traders, who would have to deposit money with the market before being able to make any trades, would buy contracts for an event they considered likely and attempt to sell contracts if they thought it unlikely.

The more buyers there were for a contract -- say, Arafat's assassination in the first quarter of 2004 -- the more likely it would be considered and the higher the price. If the event came to pass, buyers would cash in and sellers would lose out.

Up to 1,000 individuals will be allowed to register starting Friday and will begin live trading on October 1, DARPA's Web site said. Their numbers would be increased to at least 10,000 worldwide by January 1.

The Internet market site would be run by private technology firm Net Exchange with data and analysis provided by the Economist Intelligence Unit, the business information arm of the publisher of The Economist magazine.

Government agencies will be barred from taking part and from access to traders' identities or funds, DARPA said.
  #136  
Old 01-08-2004, 09:04 PM
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Interesting..
I wonder what Abdullah thinks of this.
I cant help feeling sorry for him.
Would his uncle have been a better monarch though? considering he's certainly older and more experienced.
  #137  
Old 01-08-2004, 09:24 PM
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i thing rania caters to the western society because lets be honest....where does most of the money that is being given to their country coming from....the west... she is just being a smart cookie....give them what they want and she ( and jordan) will get what they want
  #138  
Old 01-09-2004, 03:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by mya@Jan 8th, 2004 - 8:24 pm
i thing rania caters to the western society because lets be honest....where does most of the money that is being given to their country coming from....the west... she is just being a smart cookie....give them what they want and she ( and jordan) will get what they want
Well, I don't think she's being a smart cookie at all. After all, Westerners -- nor Easterners, for that matter -- are that shallow. Certainly not Western leaders. Most educated Westerners know that Jordan is dependent upon on foreign aid. The notion that the Queen of an aid dependent nation spends a fortune on clothes etc. and (seemingly) lives in the lap of luxury is not going to win her very many supporters in the long run, with the excpetion of the fashionistas. If she keeps it up people wil, sooner or later, start asking questions of their governments. Particularly those who do not like Arabs and the Arab states (and there are many such people in the world today).

S.
  #139  
Old 01-09-2004, 03:52 AM
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Asma,

You are jewel!! Thank you for posting the article.

Sean
  #140  
Old 01-09-2004, 06:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by ~*~Humera~*~@Jan 8th, 2004 - 8:04 pm
Interesting..
I wonder what Abdullah thinks of this.
I cant help feeling sorry for him.
Would his uncle have been a better monarch though? considering he's certainly older and more experienced.
I don't think so. Not very popular and very pro-Western. He lost face durin King's Hussein's illness with his and his wife's ant ics. He comes across as too pro-Israeli in my opinion (and Arabs). It's a slap in the face to Palestinians. His wife isn't all that popular either.

Sean.~
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