The Royal Forums Coat of Arms


Join The Royal Forums Today
Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
  #181  
Old 01-11-2004, 03:20 PM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: , Canada
Posts: 3,220
Quote:
Originally posted by justine@Jan 11th, 2004 - 12:49 pm
I, for one, am finding this conversation very illuminating. I realize it's strayed a bit from 'Rania's Gold Shoes'.
Can we maybe move the thread to somewhere else so that it may continue Alexandria?
I'm sorry if I was not clear.

I don't have a problem with this discussion, it's just that the last few posts have evolved into discussion of Middle Eastern conflict, politics, policies, history, etc., that are not particularly relevant to royalty.

And while I realize that we have several members who have studied history extensively and have degrees in this field, and who may provide insight into the history and present problems of this area, discussion of Palestine/Israeli conflict, etc. is straying too far away from the original intent of this topic and the latter discussion.

There has been concern expressed that this discussion may become too political, and as long as it stays clean - i.e. no profanities, name calling, or accusations and allegations against nations or individuals without proof - then I don't have a problem with this discussion continuing.

But I just want to make that clear to those individuals who wish to continue along this topic. This should be a civil discussion and exchange of information, opinions and suggestions for remedies, etc.
__________________

__________________
  #182  
Old 01-11-2004, 04:06 PM
Courtier
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 898
Thank you, Alexandria. I don't have anything to hide, so I will just say that I am the one that requsted that an administrator review the posts, just to keep things on the up and up. It's not that I want the thread to be closed per se, as it is a very interesting, erudite discssion. It's just that IME, whenever this conflict is discussed by anyone, emotions get very high on both sides. I certainly don't want anybody to be upset. Thus I thought it best to get an 'outside' opinion.

Sean
__________________

__________________
  #183  
Old 01-11-2004, 05:13 PM
Courtier
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 898
Quote:
There has always been a Jewish presence in the land from ancient times, even after the Romans expelled the Jews after the destruction of the Temple in 70A.D. (no this isn't a fairytale, it is recorded in history). So they are "natives" too.
As you know there are the Sephardi Jews and the Askhinazi Jews. The former are oft referred to as the "Arab Jews". It was they who had roots in the region. However, they were a very small minority in what was Palestine. You just have to look at every single Ottoman census. It was only afer t he Balfour decleration (and not even then) that European Jews (who today with their prosterity comprise the population of Israel) began arriving. Most started arriving after the Nazis took power and post WW II. By the time of partition the Jewish population comprised only one third of the population. In any event, just because someone's co-religionist has roots in a country does not mean that they all can move there and remove those already living there, in many instances whole villages. I certainly do not expect to go and set up house in Rome. The Palestinians certainly should not have to atone for the sins of Europe and the Holocaust

Quote:
the Palestinians and the world at large to accept its existence and get on with their lives.
They have accepted their existence. That's the problem. People keep repeating this canard tha they haven't. However, they did so officially in 1988 and in 1993 in writing. Your comment leads me to believe that you think the Palestinians should just roll over and play dead. Every people has a right to self-determination and the right to return to their land and homes. No peoples should have to "get over it". It is Israel that does not accept the Palestinianr right to statehood and recognize them. The Palestinians have already officially given up 78 percent of historical homeland but Israel refuses to let them have a state on the remaining 22 percent. It continues to build settlements on the most fertile land and diverting water for its own people. Water is one of the main reasons there is no Palestinian state, btw. The avergae Palestinian farmer has access to 40 percent less water than an Israeli settler. If the Palestinians really wanted to 'destroy' Israel like you keep hearing ad-naseaum, they would be pushing for a single bi-national state and not a separate one. With current birth rates Arabs would the majority within a few years, even with settler immigration. They haven't done this though. And don't start on about how Hamas etc. wants to destroy Israel. These groups sprung up after the 1967 war as a reaction to the ongoing occupation. Hamas itself was created by Menachim Begin in order to counter the influence of the secular PLO which was gaining in popularity. Israel did not want a Palestinian state and thus employed this divide and,it's sabotage of it along the way, and the continued brutal occuaption which has never ended. With respect to the Clinton/Barak talks, 95 percent of the Occupied Territories was not offered. It was 95 percent of what they currently occupied and it wasn't even an official offer. It would have never have been approved by the Israeli Parliament or the country's right wing. Morever, the settlements would stay and Palestinian communities would have been cut off from one another. Israel would still control water resources and air space. There would be no right of return. In short, the Palestinians were being offered unviable bantustans. No leader could take such a "deal" to his people. To be blunt, the "deal" sucked and even Clinton aides have admited so in public places such as the NYT. Also, contrary to popular perception, the Palestinians did not walk away from the table. Talks continued in Taba, Egypt until March, 2001. They were only broken off due to the Israeli election. It was Sharon who did not come back to the table after being elected.
Quote:

Why did the Palestinians not object to the creation of the Kingdom of Jordan, wasn't that too "Palestinian" land?
No, it wasn't. And you know very well that entire region was a mandate then. The British were not moving Europeans into Jordan who publicly expressed the idea of removing the native population and esablishing their own state. Read Rabbi Shalom's article. I can refer you to other resources if you like.
Quote:

Why did the Palestinians not object to Egypt snatching a part of the land now known as the Gaza strip.
How could they object. They were refugees, corallled into that land. Even today it is cumbersome for them to get in and out of Egypt. And I know Israel is not the only opressor and I've explicitly stated that several times. However, at the end of the day, the occupying power is the one responsible for the peoples. That's international law. The Arab states have no legal obligation. Indeed, one can argue that there is no reason for them to absolve Israel of its repsonsibilities. Also, all Arab states are not the same. The Arabs are a heterogenous group. Each country has its own customs, social norms, linguistic nuances, and histories. To say that there are 22 Arab countries so the Palestinians should just move to one of them not only advocates ethnic cleansing, but also fails to take these historic specificities into account. Contrary to what some want to portray, not all brown, Muslim people are the same.

Quote:

Why is the Palestinian Authority objecting to Sharon's decision to "disengage"? It's because they know they can't financially support the Palestinian people after such a much. Why can't their Arab neighbors step in to take on all the welfare payments that Israel makes to the West Bank and Gaza?
You don't know what you're talking about. Israel has continually denied financially responsibility for the Palestinians. No compensation and no services. That's why the United Nations and other aid organizations are there to feed the people, particularly in Gaza. If Israel provided social services (as it should morally), then Hamas, which does provide these services, wouldn't have the following it does.


Quote:
None of the other Arab states want to deal with Arafat.* Within Arafat's inner circle are Islamic extremists that would undermine their own regimes.
There are no extremists in the Arafat circle. The PA is secular and the Islamists such as Hamas are enemies of the PA. Some of his inner circle (including his wife and Saeb Erakat) are Christians. We can debate Arafat's leadership all we want, but he is the chosen leader of the Palestinians. He is the one who has elucidated their plight to the world and fought for them. Like it or not, he has moral authority with them. The other Arab leaders do not.
Quote:

Not even Jordan's KA want the Palestinians. He fears the Israeli "Wall" because it will mean that more Palestinians will infiltrate into Jordan.
Yes, I agree with you here. However, poor people kept in open air prisons (and make no mistake, that's what it is like there) have little options. Israel wants them to go to Jordan.

Quote:
Palestinians do nothing to help their cause by killing innocent people, or publicly supporting groups like Al-Qaeda, Hizbollah, Islamic Jihad, Ansar Al-Islam etc.
These arguments are used to justify and perpetuate the occupation and stealing of land and resources. They don't support Al-Qaeda. This is a huge, huge myth. Palestinians are not interested in Isalmic Revolution in the world. They have enough problems at home to worry about. Hezbollah is a LEBANESE organization which was formed by the Shi'ites in that country in response to the 1982 Israeli invasion of that country (you know, the same people that were supposedly going to welcom the Israeli soldiers with rice and flowers). It was Hezbollah that finally drove Israel out of tha country in 2000. Hizbollah is also a big political movement and non-profit organization in the ME. It provides services to poor people. Thus it isn't surprising that people who live in deplorable conditions and have no hope would support such organizations. If there was a viable Palestinians state, and if they weren't kept in open air prisons, bomed with 2000 pound bombs, have their homes demolished, have their husbands blind folded, stripped and jailed without charges, see their loved ones killed in extra judicial assassinations (the Israeli "democracy" murders people without trial or providing proof of their *alleged* activities), and see their children killed, these organizations would not have support. Islamic Jihad is a new organization, which is a product of the current Intifada and 50 years of occupation. The Palestinians have no links to Ansar Al-Islam. They were an obscure group operating in Northern Iraq. You simply can't list every single organization in the Middle East and say that all 3 million plus Palestinians support them or are affiliated with them without providing prima facie proof. In other words, you're saying so doesn't make it so. And if you want to taklk about killing people and human rights violations, I can cite you hundreds of human rights violations and war crims carried out by Israel. Although I don't condone violence, the Palestinians are defending themselves from the occupier. People do not just kill themselves for the hell of it. If they received billiions in military aid like Israel does they wouldn't need to turn their bodies into weapons. Even when they fight Israeli soldiers, who are not civillians and hence a legitimate target, they are labelled terrorists. You can't have it both ways.


Quote:
If the Palestinians want a state, they should demand that the Hashemites give them back their land, and send the Hashemite clan packing back to Mecca and the Hejaz.
Jordan is not on Palestinian land. And it is not for you to say what the Palestinians should do to get a state. That was decided by the international community more than 50 years ago -- the same international community that created Israel. Indeed, one can use your statement and say that perhaps the Israelis should get over it and recognize and accept that a Palestinian state will be a reality. In any event, The United Nations partition plan clearly stipulated what was Palestinian land. That's what we go by. Also, do you know how states and national identies are created? I suggest some of Max Webbers writings.

Quote:


No amount of UN resolutions can affect the will of G-d. If He wants a State of Israel, there will be one, and there is one.
Sadly, much evil has been done in the name of the will of god throughout history. Not everyone has the same god, and my or your god is not superior to those of tothers. You're statements, particularly this one, coupled with tthe way you spell god says a lot about you. You are obviously a Zionist or a right wing Christian fundamentalist. In any event, we live by the rule of man and law, not god. If you don't recognize UN resolutions then, to be consisitent, you shouldn't recognize the one that legislated Israel into existence. You can't pick the laws you like.


Asma, Synthia, et al. anything to add that I'v missed?
__________________
  #184  
Old 01-11-2004, 05:31 PM
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 1,045
1. I am absolutely a Zionist and proud of it! All freedom loving people should be Zionists--those that believe the Jewish people should have a homeland in their traditional home area--Jerusalem and environs.

2. Jordan is absolutely 70% of the British mandate of Palestine--pick up a map Sean.

3. The Palestinians continue to preach destruction of Israel, teach their kids to be suicide bombers, and have trading cards with the murderers of school children on them. Their maps and textbooks do not show Israel as existing at all.

4. Israel declared its independence regardless of the UN; btw, Israel is not in violation of *any* resolutions--not that the UN has *any* moral weight whatsover.

5. Since there never was a country of "Palestine," perhaps you need to rethink your position on the "country." It is terrible how Arafat tortures his own people--but you have the 22 Arab states who finance him to thank for that, as well as the UN, which has kept them living in squalor for 50 years.

6. No extremists in Arafat's circle? I call the murderers of toddlers, teens at discos, babies in their strollers extremists---and they are all in Arafat's circle.

As I have said, I am happy to drop the subject as long as no further misleading statements are posted here.
__________________
  #185  
Old 01-11-2004, 05:38 PM
Courtier
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 898
Quote:
Originally posted by Bubbette@Jan 11th, 2004 - 4:31 pm
1. I am absolutely a Zionist and proud of it!  All freedom loving people should be Zionists--those that believe the Jewish people should have a homeland in their traditional home area--Jerusalem and environs.

2. Jordan is absolutely 70% of the British mandate of Palestine--pick up a map Sean. 

3. The Palestinians continue to preach destruction of Israel, teach their kids to be suicide bombers, and have trading cards with the murderers of school children on them.  Their maps and textbooks do not show Israel as existing at all.
Are Bluetortuga and Bubette the same people? Sorry, I'm not implying anything and am just wondering as I think I only made the Zionist statement to the former. With respect to Jordan, I have no need to pick up a map. I'm going by the UN partition plan and international law. The Palestinians do not preach to their chyildren about violence. They love their children and only want the best for them. The tanks on the streets, the live ammunition, the extra -judicial assasinations, the confiscation of land, the harassement of soldiers, the curfews, the checkpoints, the constant humiliation of their mothers and fathers etc., is all enough to turn any child against Israel. Intdoctrination is not needed.

I won't respond to the rest of your post, as it speaks for itself and accounts for your obvious biases.

Have a great Sunday everyone (you, too Bubette)!!! I'm off to enjoy my day!
__________________
  #186  
Old 01-11-2004, 05:41 PM
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 1,045
Quote:
Originally posted by Sean.~@Jan 11th, 2004 - 11:41 am

There is no Judea and Samaria on any map, Bubette excpet for hardcore Zionist ones. In every atlas and globe the West Bank And Gaza are marked off separately. And so-called 'victors' (there are no winners in war) certainly do not get the spoils of war or lands caputered in war. Are you even familiar with the Geneval conventions ? Perhaps you should re-read the articles of the convention that I quoted above (articles 49 and 53). I will not drop the subject because you raised it and you're comments not only show you to be wrong, but also very misniformed. Just because Jordan is home to Palestinian refugees (created by Israel) does not make it a Palestinian state. Under international law and thhe United Nations resolutions those refugees have the right of return. Supporters of Israel can not pick and choose which resolutions to adhere to, as Israel itself is the result of a United Nations resolution. What Israel wants to do is transfer all oft the Palestinians into Jordan and call it a Palestinian state. This is called ethnic cleansing and it is a war crime. Israelis have only lived in the region since 1948. They can't just go and transfer the native population.
There absolutely can and probably should be a transfer of people!
It has happened in virtually every war. Especially here, where the Palestinians were told to leave by their own leaders--it's time for their own leaders to take responsibility. 10s if not 100 of million of people were displaced after WWII--it happens, it's not ethnic cleansing, and people have all managed to move on with their lives. The Palestinian leadership though, prefers to kill, maim and torture and suppress basic human rights. It doesn't seem different from any other Arab leadership now, does it?
__________________
  #187  
Old 01-11-2004, 05:45 PM
Courtier
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 898
Quote:
Originally posted by Bubbette+Jan 11th, 2004 - 4:41 pm--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Bubbette &#064; Jan 11th, 2004 - 4:41 pm)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Sean.~@Jan 11th, 2004 - 11:41 am

There is no Judea and Samaria on any map, Bubette excpet for hardcore Zionist ones. In every atlas and globe the West Bank And Gaza are marked* off separately. And so-called &#39;victors&#39; (there are no winners in war) certainly do not get the spoils of war or lands caputered in war. Are you even familiar with the Geneval conventions ?* Perhaps you should re-read the articles of the convention that I quoted above (articles 49 and 53). I will not drop the subject because you raised it and you&#39;re comments not only show you to be wrong, but also very misniformed. Just because Jordan is home to Palestinian refugees (created by Israel) does not make it a Palestinian state. Under international law and thhe United Nations resolutions those refugees have the right of return. Supporters of Israel can not pick and choose which resolutions to adhere to, as Israel itself is the result of a United Nations resolution.* What Israel wants to do is transfer all oft the Palestinians into Jordan and call it a Palestinian state. This is called ethnic cleansing and it is a war crime. Israelis have only lived in the region since 1948. They can&#39;t just go and transfer the native population.
There absolutely can and probably should be a transfer of people&#33;
It has happened in virtually every war. Especially here, where the Palestinians were told to leave by their own leaders--it&#39;s time for their own leaders to take responsibility. 10s if not 100 of million of people were displaced after WWII--it happens, it&#39;s not ethnic cleansing, and people have all managed to move on with their lives. The Palestinian leadership though, prefers to kill, maim and torture and suppress basic human rights. It doesn&#39;t seem different from any other Arab leadership now, does it? [/b][/quote]
Um, actually it is ethnic cleansing. That&#39;s what you all it when an entire ethnic group is transferred by the politically and/or economically more powerful group. Advocating such a thing is, IMO, a hate crime. What&#39;s more, I can not believe that you are advocagting that the atrocities of WW II should be repeated. Just because the Nazis did it to the Jews and the Russians did it to other minorities (such as the Chechens) doesn&#39;t mean it is okay for Israel to do it today (e.g. the US used nulear weapons during WW II. It doens&#39;t mean that it is okay for India and Pakistan to use them against one another simply because they both lay claims to Kashmir).
__________________
  #188  
Old 01-11-2004, 05:57 PM
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 1,045
Uh, no, it&#39;s called realities of life. The Palestinians up and left--it&#39;s not Israel&#39;s faulth the 22 Arab countries forbid them citizenship, property rights, or to work in most fields, as in Lebanon. And I&#39;m not saying they should be forced to leave--I&#39;m saying they should be allowed to leave--it&#39;s just the Arab countries won&#39;t let them. What do you think happened to much of central and eastern Europe&#39;s population after WWII? They relocated.

And what is wrong with using atomic weapons? War is necessary; atomic weapons are/were necessary at that time, and may be in the future.
__________________
  #189  
Old 01-11-2004, 06:02 PM
Courtier
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 898
Quote:
Originally posted by Bubbette@Jan 11th, 2004 - 4:57 pm
Uh, no, it&#39;s called realities of life. The Palestinians up and left--it&#39;s not Israel&#39;s faulth the 22 Arab countries forbid them citizenship, property rights, or to work in most fields, as in Lebanon. And I&#39;m not saying they should be forced to leave--I&#39;m saying they should be allowed to leave--it&#39;s just the Arab countries won&#39;t let them. What do you think happened to much of central and eastern Europe&#39;s population after WWII? They relocated.

And what is wrong with using atomic weapons? War is necessary; atomic weapons are/were necessary at that time, and may be in the future.
No, it is not the realities of life. That&#39;s like saying the Holocaust, Kossovo, Chechnya, etc. were the "realities of life". And that is a very simplistic and idoelogical views. And the Palestinians didn&#39;t up and leave. They were expelled and victims of Israeli terrorism. Ever hear of the Stern gang and the Igrun? People in war often flee. They do, however, have a right to return. The Arab states don&#39;t have to give them citizenship, because they have a mandated state, as per international law. In short, the Palestinians are Israels problem. Not that of the Arab states.

Anyone who advocates the use of atomic weapons is unreasonable and, IMO, insane. Sorry if that sounds harsh. Even Pentagon hawks don&#39;t advocate this. That&#39;s why there is such a emphasis on nuclear non-proliferation.
__________________
  #190  
Old 01-11-2004, 06:28 PM
Newbie
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 4
Sean,

I respect your differing view point on this matter but can you try to tone down making Arafat and Hezbollah good guys? No extremists in his inner circle? He is fighting for them? Hezbollah provides services to those poor Palestinian people? Gee - what a great bunch of people&#33; Why are those big, bad Israelis picking on such a good group of people? Can&#39;t be because they are terrorists or anything like that, could it?

And since everyone is scrutinizing Queen Rania&#39;s spending habits when her country has millions of poor people, shall we also scrutinize Arafat&#39;s wife? Hmmm...I remember reading somewhere about a Paris apartment and I&#39;m sure she has the finest clothes as well. Does anyone have any stats on her spending and Arafat&#39;s wealth?
__________________
  #191  
Old 01-11-2004, 07:18 PM
bluetortuga
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Quote:
Are Bluetortuga and Bubette the same people? Sorry, I&#39;m not implying anything and am just wondering as I think I only made the Zionist statement to the former.
Bluetortuga and Bubbette are not the same people, Sean. I am a supporter of Israel and her right to exist. I do not support any organization or state that uses terror as a means to achieve their goals. You don&#39;t justify your cause by blowing up civilians. You don&#39;t justify your cause by dancing and celebrating in the streets after a terrorist event (9/11). If the PA was not so corrupt, maybe there would have been a Palestinian state already. But they have proven time and time again that they cannot be trusted. One day they say peace, the next day its a bombing. And they are only willing to return to the peace table whenever one of their major allies takes a big hit. Saddam&#39;s capture was a huge blow to the PA. Hamas admitted that this week.

Quote:
You don&#39;t know what you&#39;re talking about. Israel has continually denied financially responsibility for the Palestinians. No compensation and no services. That&#39;s why the United Nations and other aid organizations are there to feed the people, particularly in Gaza. If Israel provided social services (as it should morally), then Hamas, which does provide these services, wouldn&#39;t have the following it does.
If I can recall PNMQureia said this week that he would pursue a one-state solution if necessary so that Israel would continue to have full legal and financial responsibility of the West Bank and Gaza. I thought they wanted their own state already.

You accuse the Israelis of ethnic cleansing. Didn&#39;t ethnic cleansing occur in your country too, when the native americans were shifted to reservations so that they would not pose a threat to the white population? More than any other nations Canada and the U.S. are guilty of ethnic cleansing. How come no one speaks about that injustice, since you are so passionate about human rights?

Quote:
Sadly, much evil has been done in the name of the will of god throughout history. Not everyone has the same god, and my or your god is not superior to those of tothers. You&#39;re statements, particularly this one, coupled with tthe way you spell god says a lot about you. You are obviously a Zionist or a right wing Christian fundamentalist. In any event, we live by the rule of man and law, not god. If you don&#39;t recognize UN resolutions then, to be consisitent, you shouldn&#39;t recognize the one that legislated Israel into existence. You can&#39;t pick the laws you like.
Who is the UN? Have they been appointed as the world&#39;s government? They can&#39;t do anything let alone tell a nation what to do. As for G-d, we all live by His laws. We can&#39;t even bat an eyelash without Him allowing it. Zionist? Yes. Believer in G-d? Yes. Supporter of Israel? Yes. Supporter of a fair and equitable solution for the Palestinian people? Yes. Supporter of terror? No, and never will be. It&#39;s funny, some of the organizations you defend would find you to be an infidel.
__________________
  #192  
Old 01-11-2004, 07:57 PM
Blueice's Avatar
Nobility
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Belgrade, Serbia and Montenegro
Posts: 384
Reading these posts in a last few days, I was thankfully grasping less known information regarding issues not even remotely superficial as this thread&#39;s title may of suggested at the beginning.

Vivid, intense and mostly well argumented debate on Middle East&#39;s salient issues enabled excellent insight to various social, cultural, political, geopolitical and historical problems and aspects of life in this tormented region, and revealed some of participants&#39; admirable knowledge at these fields as well as their sincere interest, care and passion for what they believe in.

Indeed, I have learned a lot and I am grateful for that.

Unfortunately, I have also learned that we failed in understanding the most valuable and important lessons that history teaches us.

Without right and therefore without any attention to debate, judge or take sides:

I don&#39;t believe that language of hate, intolerance and prejudice would do any good to anyone; I don&#39;t believe that repression is a good answer to repression, nor that violence of any kind is a solution for any sort of problem; I don&#39;t believe that there are &#39;right&#39; hands for the weapons of mass-destruction to be placed into; I don&#39;t believe in one side truth;

I do believe in communication, understanding and tolerance or at least in effort to achieve them; I do believe that there is always a peaceful solution if there is a good will and open mind involved in a search; I do believe in every person&#39;s right to live dignified life;

I want to believe in laws equal for all and equally respected by all; I want to believe that all parents love their children; I want to believe that common sense, love and tolerance will prevail.

On this Forum at least. After all, reaching a point when we can agree on the fact that we disagree, and being able to treat the other side respectfully along the way, despite the differences - is a step forward. Thank you.
__________________
  #193  
Old 01-11-2004, 09:51 PM
Courtier
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 898
Quote:
Originally posted by mpmer@Jan 11th, 2004 - 5:28 pm
Sean,

I respect your differing view point on this matter but can you try to tone down making Arafat and Hezbollah good guys?&nbsp; No extremists in his inner circle?&nbsp; He is fighting for them?&nbsp; Hezbollah provides services to those poor Palestinian people?&nbsp; Gee - what a great bunch of people&#33;&nbsp; Why are those big, bad Israelis picking on such a good group of people?&nbsp; Can&#39;t be because they are terrorists or anything like that, could it?

And since everyone is scrutinizing Queen Rania&#39;s spending habits when her country has millions of poor people, shall we also scrutinize Arafat&#39;s wife?&nbsp; Hmmm...I remember reading somewhere about a Paris apartment and I&#39;m sure she has the finest clothes as well.&nbsp; Does anyone have any stats on her spending and Arafat&#39;s wealth?
I&#39;m not making them out to be good guys, and perhaps you should ask those who advocate ethnic cleansing and nuclear warfare to "tone it down a little". If you go back and re-read my post you will see that I wrote that there are no Islamist extremists in Arafat&#39;s inner circle. There is a difference. And, like it or not, Hezbollah does provide services for Palesetinians and that is why they are so popular. Thus I am only accounting for why they are popular, as it is insufficient to say (some) &#39;Palestinians support Hezbollah&#39; without looking at the reasons why. I am not sayin that they are good or bad. We in the West only know the militant side of Hezbollah, but the fact of the matter is that it has many different wings. So kindly do not attribute inaccurate comments and motives.

Quote:
Why are those big, bad Israelis picking on such a good group of people?&nbsp; Can&#39;t be because they are terrorists or anything like that, could it?
Not in this instance. If there was no Occupation, there would be no terrorism. It is a cause and effect situation. There is an old addage that one man&#39;s terrorist is another man&#39;s freedom fighterTerrorism breeds on despair, poverty, inequalities, etc. You simply have to look at how and when these groups came into existence. Wtih respect to Hezbollah, it has never had any interests outside the Middle East. Neither has Hamas (created by Israel), Islamic Jihad, Al Aqsa, etc. Hezbollah is a Lebanese organization and was created in response to Israel&#39;s invasion of that country in 1982. It is not a Palestinians organization, although that is one of their causes. In Lebanon, Hezbollah is a powerful political party and not seen as a terrorist organization. Don&#39;t jump all over me for stating what is a fact. You may see it as a terrorist organization, but the Lebanese do not. In any event, if you want to talk about terrorists, why not talk about the Stern Gang, the Igrun, the IDF, and the numerous Jewish Setltlers organziations that engage in daily violence against Palestinians?

If you want to scrutinize Suha, go ahead. She has a Paris apartment, but her family is rich. She grew up in France and attended the Sorbonne at the University of Paris. We can also talk about BB Netanyahu and his wife Sara. She too has quite the reputation and we all know about BB Netanyahu&#39;s corruption. Ariel Sharon and his sons are being investigated too. So corruption, lying and theft are not just Arab problems. Whether corrupt or not, I&#39;ve seen the way Arafat lives. He sleeps in a mettle frame bed in a small room. The only decor is a picture of his daughter in a platic frame.
__________________
  #194  
Old 01-11-2004, 10:31 PM
Commoner
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 18
Hi Sean&#33;

Where do you have get all this information?

I mean I found it very interesting, when ppl did not only critisize arab leaders.

Can you give some more information about Suha Arafat? Because the western media is just saying, that she has stolen millions of the palestinians, that she have a lavish lfestyle etc...

And what is about the relationship between Arafat and Suha?

Thanks
Noelle
__________________
  #195  
Old 01-11-2004, 10:46 PM
Courtier
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 898
Quote:
Bluetortuga and Bubbette are not the same people, Sean
.


My apologies then. I just wasn&#39;t sure. :flower:
Quote:

I am a supporter of Israel and her right to exist. I do not support any organization or state that uses terror as a means to achieve their goals.
Does that include Israel too? Also, can you cite official examples (i.e. by IFIs and the UN) of Palestinian corruption? Now compare and contrast to every other state in the world, including Israel.
Quote:

If the PA was not so corrupt, maybe there would have been a Palestinian state already. But they have proven time and time again that they cannot be trusted. One day they say peace, the next day its a bombing.
There would never have been a Palestinian state because until recently Israel would not agree to one. The PA was only established in 1993. However, Israeli leaders througout the country&#39;s short history, from Ben Gurion to Golda Meir and from Rabin to Sharon, have always vehemently opposed a Palestinian State. Not because of the corruption of the PA (which didn&#39;t exist before 1993), but because they saw Palestine as their &#39;god given&#39; land. Indeed, up until last year, Sharon was publicly against a Palestinian state -- no matter what. Also, While corruption is a problem, that has nothing to do with statehood.There are plent of states with corruption. Thus it is just an excuse to deny statehood and gobble up more and more land.

If you are so against terrorism, you should also be against State sponsored terrorism, which Israel engages in daily. Again, I can cite you hundreds of examples if you so wish. I do not condone violence (I believe human life is sacrosanct), but having seen how they are treated, I do understand what would drive the Palestinians to such depths of despair. Your argument of not being trusted can be used against the Israelis. Cosntant seize fires, but then the displacing of civilians for settlements, the diverting of water, the confiscatio of farm lands for settlers, the extra judicial assassinations, the torture, the breaking of bones of young Palestinian boys with huge stones by soldiers (I&#39;ve seen it with my own two eyes), the dropping of 2000 pound bombs into the most densely populated area on earth. The list is endless. The fact of the matter is that Israel has done nothing to make peace. As one previous poster even acknowledged, ethnic cleansing or "transfer" is the preferred solution. This has been the case since the inception of Israel. Indeed, Theodre Herzl, the founder of Zionism, even said so at at the turn of the century.

Quote:
You don&#39;t justify your cause by blowing up civilians.
The bombings can not be controlled by the PA. Even in areas that are under the control of the Israeli Defence Forces with all of their military might (thanks to the US tax payer), bombers get out. If they can&#39;t stop it, then you can not expect an civilian authority wich has been decimated by the Israelis to be able to do so. Until there is a brutal occupation, there will be violence. Any simpelton knows that. Just look at colonial history. Even Israelis recognize that now. There soldiers are refusing to serve for these vary reasons.

Quote:
And they are only willing to return to the peace table whenever one of their major allies takes a big hit.
You are also wrong when you say the Palestinians don&#39;t come to the peace table until they suffer some kind of setback or when "one of their major allies takes a hit. Firstly, they don&#39;t have any major allies (I don&#39;t count the self-serving Arab states as allies). Secondly, the fact is that they are always calling for dialogue. It is Israel that refuses to deal with the Palestinians under the lame excuse that it will not negotiate with Arafat. It was the Israelis who walked away from the talks at Taba. With respect ot the Palestinians are always wanting to have discussions. It was because of their efforts and the first intifada that Oslo took place. It is because of the second Intifada that the roadmap (a non-starter, IMO) was published by the &#39;quartet&#39;. The Palestinians have fought for their rights and like other colonial peoples before them have they refused to roll over and play dead.

Quote:
You don&#39;t justify your cause by dancing and celebrating in the streets after a terrorist event (9/11).
They weren&#39;t the only ones that danced. Like events occurred throughout the world. The celebrations (only some celebrated) took place before the extent of the damage was known. Moreover, Palestinians are bombed and attacked with American made weaponry daily. They know that America supports Israel because of the Zionist lobby in the States. That&#39;s why some of them were happy. Not completely unreasonable. And what about the Israelii&#39;s shooting the video and clapping?

Quote:
Saddam&#39;s capture was a huge blow to the PA. Hamas admitted that this week.
Yes, Saddam supported the Palestinians morally and financially, when the other Arab countries sold out to the highest bidder. This doesn&#39;t make the Palestinians bad people. Just like doesn&#39;t make Americans bad people for having supported Saddam Hussein during the 1970s and 80s, when they knew he was carrying out huge atrocities. So I don&#39;t see why it should be any different when the role is reversed. If they the United States was more even handed and less biased, then one could argue that they would not have needed Saddam&#39;s financial support. After all, Israel receives billions thanks to the work of AIPAC and other lobby groups. In any event, the PA and Hamas are not connected. They are diametrically opposed to one another so one has to be a bit weary of what one says about other.

Quote:
If I can recall PNMQureia said this week that he would pursue a one-state solution if necessary so that Israel would continue to have full legal and financial responsibility of the West Bank and Gaza. I thought they wanted their own state already.
You either misunderstood or a quoting out of context. Israel does not support the Palestinians. It never has because by doing so it will acknowledge that it created refugees, which in turn will mean that they have the right of return and the right to compensation. That is one of the biggest problems. That&#39;s why they don&#39;t even refer to it as the Occupied territories.It&#39;s the intrenational community that foots the bill.

Quote:
You accuse the Israelis of ethnic cleansing. Didn&#39;t ethnic cleansing occur in your country too, when the native americans were shifted to reservations so that they would not pose a threat to the white population? More than any other nations Canada and the U.S. are guilty of ethnic cleansing. How come no one speaks about that injustice, since you are so passionate about human rights?
Indeed, it did occur here (and I it was a previous poster that was advocating it). It wasn&#39;t only ethnic cleansing, but it was genocide. Don&#39;t worry, I&#39;m not a selective historian. I am more than willing to acknowledge wrongs done by my country. However, that happened hundreds of year ago -- although, sadly, Native peoples are still poorly treated here --, and the clock can not be reversed. The crimes being purportrated against the Palestinians, however, is taking place in the here and now. We should not let what happened to Native Americans happen again. Just because European colonialists mistreated Native Americans/Canadians, does not make it okay for Israel to mistreat Palestinians.

Quote:
Who is the UN? Have they been appointed as the world&#39;s government? They can&#39;t do anything let alone tell a nation what to do.
The UN is the international community. It is the same body that legislated Israel into existence. In other words, if it wasn&#39;t for the UN, there would be no Israel. It is far from perfect, but the world is a better place with it (the UN, that is). And I am not defending any organization. I am trying to provide another side of the argument, although I am pro-Palestinian. I do not, however, supporate a separate state. For a two state solution to work the Palestinian state will haveto be equal and viable, not subordinate. This will not happen. Thus I suppport a binational state, with equal rights for both peoples. I think it&#39;s about time that the Palestinians start demanding one too.

Quote:
As for G-d, we all live by His laws. We can&#39;t even bat an eyelash without Him allowing it. Zionist? Yes. Believer in G-d? Yes. Supporter of Israel? Yes. Supporter of a fair and equitable solution for the Palestinian people? Yes. Supporter of terror? No, and never will be. It&#39;s funny, some of the organizations you defend would find you to be an infidel.
Actually, we don&#39;t all live by any one god&#39;s laws, if at all. And many do not see god as a man. Be cognizant of that. As far as supporting terror...hmmm. Many, many people (more and more each day) would take the position that if you support Israel you support state sponsored terrorism. And if an organization consideres me an infidel, then so be it. That is their problem, not mine.

All the best.
__________________
  #196  
Old 01-11-2004, 10:51 PM
mya mya is offline
Commoner
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 21
WHAT HAPPENED TO RANIA&#39;S GOLD SHOES....AT FIRST THE CONTROVERSY WAS INTERESTED...NOW ITS KIND OF BORING...CRITICIZING BACK AND FORTH AND I DONT THINK ANYONE IS ACTUALLY LISTENING TO THE OTHER SIDE..WHAT A TRAGEDY.....
__________________
  #197  
Old 01-11-2004, 10:54 PM
Courtier
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 898
Quote:
Originally posted by Noelle@Jan 11th, 2004 - 9:31 pm
Hi Sean&#33;

Where do you have get all this information?

I mean I found it very interesting, when ppl did not only critisize arab leaders.

Can you give some more information about Suha Arafat? Because the western media is just saying, that she has stolen millions of the palestinians, that she have a lavish lfestyle etc...

And what is about the relationship between Arafat and Suha?

Thanks
Noelle
Suha is Arafat&#39;s wife, and comes from a prominent Palestinian-French Christian family from Ramallah. They have one daughter, Fatima (IIRC). The media always disparages Suha and Arafat, but the media (i.e. the Amerian media) isn&#39;t exactly un -biased when it comes to the Palestinians, as the Israeli lobby in the US is the most powerful one in the country. In any event, there is corruption in teh PA, but Arafat himself leads a very asture life. I think he turns a blind eye to skimming by certain officials etc. , but then holds it against them later as a power over strategy. As far as Suha is concerned, I would demand prima facie evidence before forming any conclusions. She comes from a fairly rich family.

Former Israel PM Netenyahu and his wife were also alleged to have stolen millions from their people. Thehy were even investigated. You may want to search the net for that (just type in Netenyahu + theft or Netenyahu + stealing and investigation into Google). Sharon and his sons are being investigated too.

Hope that answers some of your questions.
__________________
  #198  
Old 01-11-2004, 10:58 PM
Courtier
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 898
Quote:
Originally posted by Blueice@Jan 11th, 2004 - 6:57 pm
Reading these posts in a last few days, I was thankfully grasping less known information regarding issues not even remotely superficial as this thread&#39;s title may of suggested at the beginning.

Vivid, intense and mostly well argumented debate on Middle East&#39;s salient issues enabled excellent insight to various social, cultural, political, geopolitical and historical problems and aspects of life in this tormented region, and revealed some of participants&#39; admirable knowledge at these fields as well as their sincere interest, care and passion for what they believe in.

Indeed, I have learned a lot and I am grateful for that.

Unfortunately, I have also learned that we failed in understanding the most valuable and important lessons that history teaches us.

Without right and therefore without any attention to debate, judge or take sides:

I don&#39;t believe that language of hate, intolerance and prejudice would do any good to anyone; I don&#39;t believe that repression is a good answer to repression, nor that violence of any kind is a solution for any sort of problem; I don&#39;t believe that there are &#39;right&#39; hands for the weapons of mass-destruction to be placed into; I don&#39;t believe in one side truth;

I do believe in communication, understanding and tolerance or at least in effort to achieve them; I do believe that there is always a peaceful solution if there is a good will and open mind involved in a search; I do believe in every person&#39;s right to live dignified life;

I want to believe in laws equal for all and equally respected by all; I want to believe that all parents love their children; I want to believe that common sense, love and tolerance will prevail.

On this Forum at least. After all, reaching a point when we can agree on the fact that we disagree, and being able to treat the other side respectfully along the way, despite the differences - is a step forward. Thank you.
You&#39;re awesome and very admireable. You have such a way with words. Thank you.

Sean.~
__________________
  #199  
Old 01-11-2004, 11:11 PM
Humble
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Quote:
Originally posted by Sean.~@Jan 11th, 2004 - 9:46 pm
Quote:
Bluetortuga and Bubbette are not the same people, Sean
.


My apologies then. I just wasn&#39;t sure. :flower:
Quote:

I am a supporter of Israel and her right to exist. I do not support any organization or state that uses terror as a means to achieve their goals.
Does that include Israel too? Also, can you cite official examples (i.e. by IFIs and the UN) of Palestinian corruption? Now compare and contrast to every other state in the world, including Israel.
Quote:

If the PA was not so corrupt, maybe there would have been a Palestinian state already. But they have proven time and time again that they cannot be trusted. One day they say peace, the next day its a bombing.
There would never have been a Palestinian state because until recently Israel would not agree to one. The PA was only established in 1993. However, Israeli leaders througout the country&#39;s short history, from Ben Gurion to Golda Meir and from Rabin to Sharon, have always vehemently opposed a Palestinian State. Not because of the corruption of the PA (which didn&#39;t exist before 1993), but because they saw Palestine as their &#39;god given&#39; land. Indeed, up until last year, Sharon was publicly against a Palestinian state -- no matter what. Also, While corruption is a problem, that has nothing to do with statehood.There are plent of states with corruption. Thus it is just an excuse to deny statehood and gobble up more and more land.

If you are so against terrorism, you should also be against State sponsored terrorism, which Israel engages in daily. Again, I can cite you hundreds of examples if you so wish. I do not condone violence (I believe human life is sacrosanct), but having seen how they are treated, I do understand what would drive the Palestinians to such depths of despair. Your argument of not being trusted can be used against the Israelis. Cosntant seize fires, but then the displacing of civilians for settlements, the diverting of water, the confiscatio of farm lands for settlers, the extra judicial assassinations, the torture, the breaking of bones of young Palestinian boys with huge stones by soldiers (I&#39;ve seen it with my own two eyes), the dropping of 2000 pound bombs into the most densely populated area on earth. The list is endless. The fact of the matter is that Israel has done nothing to make peace. As one previous poster even acknowledged, ethnic cleansing or "transfer" is the preferred solution. This has been the case since the inception of Israel. Indeed, Theodre Herzl, the founder of Zionism, even said so at at the turn of the century.

Quote:
You don&#39;t justify your cause by blowing up civilians.
The bombings can not be controlled by the PA. Even in areas that are under the control of the Israeli Defence Forces with all of their military might (thanks to the US tax payer), bombers get out. If they can&#39;t stop it, then you can not expect an civilian authority wich has been decimated by the Israelis to be able to do so. Until there is a brutal occupation, there will be violence. Any simpelton knows that. Just look at colonial history. Even Israelis recognize that now. There soldiers are refusing to serve for these vary reasons.

Quote:
And they are only willing to return to the peace table whenever one of their major allies takes a big hit.
You are also wrong when you say the Palestinians don&#39;t come to the peace table until they suffer some kind of setback or when "one of their major allies takes a hit. Firstly, they don&#39;t have any major allies (I don&#39;t count the self-serving Arab states as allies). Secondly, the fact is that they are always calling for dialogue. It is Israel that refuses to deal with the Palestinians under the lame excuse that it will not negotiate with Arafat. It was the Israelis who walked away from the talks at Taba. With respect ot the Palestinians are always wanting to have discussions. It was because of their efforts and the first intifada that Oslo took place. It is because of the second Intifada that the roadmap (a non-starter, IMO) was published by the &#39;quartet&#39;. The Palestinians have fought for their rights and like other colonial peoples before them have they refused to roll over and play dead.

Quote:
You don&#39;t justify your cause by dancing and celebrating in the streets after a terrorist event (9/11).
They weren&#39;t the only ones that danced. Like events occurred throughout the world. The celebrations (only some celebrated) took place before the extent of the damage was known. Moreover, Palestinians are bombed and attacked with American made weaponry daily. They know that America supports Israel because of the Zionist lobby in the States. That&#39;s why some of them were happy. Not completely unreasonable. And what about the Israelii&#39;s shooting the video and clapping?

Quote:
Saddam&#39;s capture was a huge blow to the PA. Hamas admitted that this week.
Yes, Saddam supported the Palestinians morally and financially, when the other Arab countries sold out to the highest bidder. This doesn&#39;t make the Palestinians bad people. Just like doesn&#39;t make Americans bad people for having supported Saddam Hussein during the 1970s and 80s, when they knew he was carrying out huge atrocities. So I don&#39;t see why it should be any different when the role is reversed. If they the United States was more even handed and less biased, then one could argue that they would not have needed Saddam&#39;s financial support. After all, Israel receives billions thanks to the work of AIPAC and other lobby groups. In any event, the PA and Hamas are not connected. They are diametrically opposed to one another so one has to be a bit weary of what one says about other.

Quote:
If I can recall PNMQureia said this week that he would pursue a one-state solution if necessary so that Israel would continue to have full legal and financial responsibility of the West Bank and Gaza. I thought they wanted their own state already.
You either misunderstood or a quoting out of context. Israel does not support the Palestinians. It never has because by doing so it will acknowledge that it created refugees, which in turn will mean that they have the right of return and the right to compensation. That is one of the biggest problems. That&#39;s why they don&#39;t even refer to it as the Occupied territories.It&#39;s the intrenational community that foots the bill.

Quote:
You accuse the Israelis of ethnic cleansing. Didn&#39;t ethnic cleansing occur in your country too, when the native americans were shifted to reservations so that they would not pose a threat to the white population? More than any other nations Canada and the U.S. are guilty of ethnic cleansing. How come no one speaks about that injustice, since you are so passionate about human rights?
Indeed, it did occur here (and I it was a previous poster that was advocating it). It wasn&#39;t only ethnic cleansing, but it was genocide. Don&#39;t worry, I&#39;m not a selective historian. I am more than willing to acknowledge wrongs done by my country. However, that happened hundreds of year ago -- although, sadly, Native peoples are still poorly treated here --, and the clock can not be reversed. The crimes being purportrated against the Palestinians, however, is taking place in the here and now. We should not let what happened to Native Americans happen again. Just because European colonialists mistreated Native Americans/Canadians, does not make it okay for Israel to mistreat Palestinians.

Quote:
Who is the UN? Have they been appointed as the world&#39;s government? They can&#39;t do anything let alone tell a nation what to do.
The UN is the international community. It is the same body that legislated Israel into existence. In other words, if it wasn&#39;t for the UN, there would be no Israel. It is far from perfect, but the world is a better place with it (the UN, that is). And I am not defending any organization. I am trying to provide another side of the argument, although I am pro-Palestinian. I do not, however, supporate a separate state. For a two state solution to work the Palestinian state will haveto be equal and viable, not subordinate. This will not happen. Thus I suppport a binational state, with equal rights for both peoples. I think it&#39;s about time that the Palestinians start demanding one too.

Quote:
As for G-d, we all live by His laws. We can&#39;t even bat an eyelash without Him allowing it. Zionist? Yes. Believer in G-d? Yes. Supporter of Israel? Yes. Supporter of a fair and equitable solution for the Palestinian people? Yes. Supporter of terror? No, and never will be. It&#39;s funny, some of the organizations you defend would find you to be an infidel.
Actually, we don&#39;t all live by any one god&#39;s laws, if at all. And many do not see god as a man. Be cognizant of that. As far as supporting terror...hmmm. Many, many people (more and more each day) would take the position that if you support Israel you support state sponsored terrorism. And if an organization consideres me an infidel, then so be it. That is their problem, not mine.

All the best.
Sean,

I admire your articulated answers & the intelligent way you answer back.
Straight to the point with supported facts. I studied history (not my major though) and read the news & reports from many sources. You are absolutely RIGHT... & you are well informed. I am enjoying the debate here.

Humble, Phd. in Information Sciences.
__________________
  #200  
Old 01-11-2004, 11:22 PM
Courtier
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 898
Thank you, Humble. I appreciate your kind words. It really means a lot to me.
Sean.~
__________________

__________________
Closed Thread


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 2 (0 members and 2 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Queen Rania's Eveningwear Part 1: December 2003 - March 2007 paulette Archives 407 03-27-2007 01:31 PM
Pavlos And Marie Chantal: Current Events December 2002 - October 2003 Julia Crown Prince Pavlos, Marie Chantal and Family 76 10-14-2003 08:40 PM




Additional Links
Popular Tags
abdication birth charlene crown prince frederik crown prince haakon crown princess letizia crown princess mary crown princess mette-marit crown princess victoria current events duchess of cambridge fashion genealogy grand duchess maria teresa grand duke henri hohenzollern infanta leonor infanta sofia jewellery jordan king abdullah ii king carl xvi gustav king felipe king felipe vi king harald king juan carlos king philippe king willem-alexander luxembourg nobility olympic games ottoman pom president komorowski prince albert prince albert ii prince carl philip prince constantijn prince felipe prince floris prince maurits prince pieter-christiaan princess anita princess astrid princess beatrix princess charlene princess claire princess laurentien princess letizia princess madeleine princess marilene princess mary princess mary fashion princess of asturias queen letizia queen mathilde queen maxima queen rania queen silvia queen sofia royal royal fashion russia sofia hellqvist spain state visit sweden the hague wedding winter olympics 2014



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:59 PM.

Social Knowledge Networks

eXTReMe Tracker
Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2014
Jelsoft Enterprises

Royal News Delivered to your Email!

You can get the latest Royal News right in your inbox.

unsusbcribe at anytime with one click

Close [X]