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  #141  
Old 10-06-2004, 09:27 PM
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It's a contentious subject (the JRF & the political-economic situation in the ME), and it brings out passionionate positions in everyone. Believe me, I know :)

To answer Humble's question, that is one of the reasons I've stayed away, because once I get started... Anyway, it takes a lot of energy & time, and we're often debating with people who are not familiar with the the facts (and I'm not referring to anyone in particular), and/or are not always willing to look at the broader picture, or who will be apologists due to their status under the regime (or for other reaons) despite the historical precedents and overwhelming 'proof' (for lack of a better term) to the contrary -- ie a previous posters dismissive comments about 'alleged human rights violations' in Jordan. I mean COME ON, I can cite several real cases off the top of my head. Not only was that comment apologetic propaganda/'spin' at it's worst, but it is also insulting and demeaning to all those who have suffered under the Hashemite regime.

A comparison was also drawn between the Hashemites and the Romanovs. Rather than a Peter the great, I see Abdullah as a Reza Pahalavi -- anyone who is familiar with the history of the region will know why. And we all know the fate he suffered (and the fate of the Romanovs is nothing brag about either).

Although the subject of Rania's recyling (or lack thereof) may sound superficial, what many don't realize that her recycling and spending in general does have an impact on the perception of the JRF & thus affects its future. Some, like Balqis, hold that it will have a positive impact, whereas others (like myself) hold that it will contribute to the family's downfall. I guess what I'm trying to say is that we're not that off topic -- :)



Quote:
Originally Posted by QueenB
If the comments were directed at everyone in this thread, then it should have been said in the post. I brought it up, because I myself have noticed that those warnings only come up when something that isn't pro JRF is said.
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  #142  
Old 10-06-2004, 09:58 PM
Balqis's Avatar
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Sean, it was a pleasure to read your post. Even though we do not agree I do like to read other points of view when they are conveyed with respect and a focus on the real issues.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean.~
It's a contentious subject (the JRF & the political-economic situation in the ME), and it brings out passionionate positions in everyone. Believe me, I know :)

To answer Humble's question, that is one of the reasons I've stayed away, because once I get started... Anyway, it takes a lot of energy & time, and we're often debating with people who are not familiar with the the facts (and I'm not referring to anyone in particular), and/or are not always willing to look at the broader picture, or who will be apologists due to their status under the regime (or for other reaons) despite the historical precedents and overwhelming 'proof' (for lack of a better term) to the contrary -- ie a previous posters dismissive comments about 'alleged human rights violations' in Jordan. I mean COME ON, I can cite several real cases off the top of my head. Not only was that comment apologetic propaganda/'spin' at it's worst, but it is also insulting and demeaning to all those who have suffered under the Hashemite regime.
I do not mean to insult those who may have suffered unjustly, but the fact is that Jordan, like any other Arab nation in the region, is a tough and brutal place filled with many dangerous factions who threaten progress from all sides. In order to maintain control of the population, King Abdullah must be feared more than he is loved. I am not trying to excuse or "spin" his often strong-armed tactics. They're simply necessary to maintain order while the country marches forward. It's not like Abdullah is sponsoring death camps and rape rooms. The authorities throw people in prison and maybe the wrong person gets tortured, but this sends a powerful message to dangerous troublemakers who would otherwise run rampant. And it's not as if Jordan holds the monopoly on unjust imprisonment. Remember the Guildford Five in the UK, or just take a trip down to Guantanamo Bay. These are examples of injustice perpetrated by the "leading lights of democracy". Cut Abdullah some slack.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean.~
A comparison was also drawn between the Hashemites and the Romanovs. Rather than a Peter the great, I see Abdullah as a Reza Pahalavi -- anyone who is familiar with the history of the region will know why. And we all know the fate he suffered (and the fate of the Romanovs is nothing brag about either).
Sean, I can understand why you would make a comparison between Abdullah and the Shah. Whether or not it's valid will be determined by how effectively the King maintains control of his society. But, like Peter the Great, Abdullah has a vision for the future and his ongoing reforms ensure positive forward momentum. Peter the Great was never overthrown (though many tried) and because he kept control during the transformation process, allowing for a new generation of new citizens to reap the rewards of his reforms, thus ensuring the stability of his regime. Your point about the end of the Romanovs is a good one that should be kept in mind. Czar Nicholas II lost the throne due to his lack of control and inefficient, clumsy use of authority. As long as King Abdullah maintains a strong forward thinking agenda, keeps his military happy through strong ties with the west, and continues to promote a vision of the future that the youth will embrace, his rule will be secure and his country will evolve.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean.~
Although the subject of Rania's recyling (or lack thereof) may sound superficial, what many don't realize that her recycling and spending in general does have an impact on the perception of the JRF & thus affects its future. Some, like Balqis, hold that it will have a positive impact, whereas others (like myself) hold that it will contribute to the family's downfall. I guess what I'm trying to say is that we're not that off topic -- :)
Excellent analysis, Sean. All of these subjects are inextricably intermingled. Whether or not the impact is positive depends on one's assumptions.
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  #143  
Old 10-07-2004, 01:36 AM
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While there are those here happy to critisise Rania I wonder if they were as quick to do the same to Diana when she was spending thousands of pounds on clothes during a time when her husband and his family payed no tax on their substantial private income???
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  #144  
Old 10-07-2004, 02:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wymanda
While there are those here happy to critisise Rania I wonder if they were as quick to do the same to Diana when she was spending thousands of pounds on clothes during a time when her husband and his family payed no tax on their substantial private income???
Diana is british...Britain is not Jordan..No need to elaborate on the differences between the two countries and the two familes (not to state the obvious)...
NB: Diana came from a Noble family..even one the tiaras she wore belongs to her one family...SO.....................


(Again, posters are criticizing actions/ behaviors)...

We need to accept that Rania wears beautiful gowns..that she has a sense of style, that she is pretty, blah,,,blah...BUT....She and the JRF members are spending too much money they do not really deserve..They are OVERDOING IT...
  #145  
Old 10-07-2004, 11:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moon
Diana is british...Britain is not Jordan..No need to elaborate on the differences between the two countries and the two familes (not to state the obvious)...
NB: Diana came from a Noble family..even one the tiaras she wore belongs to her one family...SO.....................


(Again, posters are criticizing actions/ behaviors)...

We need to accept that Rania wears beautiful gowns..that she has a sense of style, that she is pretty, blah,,,blah...BUT....She and the JRF members are spending too much money they do not really deserve..They are OVERDOING IT...
My point was that Diana's husband was recieving a HUGE income without paying tax on any of it. Wether Diana's family were noble or not does not enter into the equation. She was spending obscene amounts of money on clothes during the early years of her marriage. Her family certainly were not paying for them so it was obviously coming from the public purse. Also the Spencers didn't pay the royals with the tiara! They had it back quick smart when she died!
People would critisise Rania very quickly if she didn't dress like a queen. Other posters have said that the people of society in Jordan would certainly be vocal in their critisism if she didn't have lots of nice clothes, shoes etc.
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  #146  
Old 10-08-2004, 12:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wymanda
My point was that Diana's husband was recieving a HUGE income without paying tax on any of it. Wether Diana's family were noble or not does not enter into the equation. She was spending obscene amounts of money on clothes during the early years of her marriage. Her family certainly were not paying for them so it was obviously coming from the public purse. Also the Spencers didn't pay the royals with the tiara! They had it back quick smart when she died!

People would critisise Rania very quickly if she didn't dress like a queen. Other posters have said that the people of society in Jordan would certainly be vocal in their critisism if she didn't have lots of nice clothes, shoes etc.
1.Actually, the Prince of Wales is paid from the income from the Duchy of Cornwall -- Crown Esates -- not the "public purse".

2. Diana DID spend an obscene amount of money. No argument from me. And she WAS criticized for it -- often.

3. As to Rania living like she does to please society: Hardly. That's just an excuse. It's substance that matters. Sure she should be presentable, but their lifesytle (not just the clothes) is excessive. Flying in hairdressers & having $64,000 shoes made is beyond decadent. It's Marcos-Mugabe-esque. As someone who knows the ME & the people there, I can tell you that people are not impressed by her spending habits. Abdullah and his Mrs. live like Third World despots.

4. Regardless of what Diana's spent, the two are not comparable. Jordan is NOT Brtain. I think the previous poster presented that argument quite well.
  #147  
Old 10-08-2004, 02:47 AM
amina1's Avatar
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Red face

Are there shoes of $64000? I have no idea!
I know about her dresses but that expensive shoes...
  #148  
Old 10-08-2004, 03:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amina1
Are there shoes of $64000? I have no idea!
I know about her dresses but that expensive shoes...
Actually, they cost more than that. That was just the 'down payment' . they are made out of gold & studded with topazes and diamonds. She had them made in India. She was having them made in Pakistan before but they were only made of leather covered in gold. Apparently that wasn't good enough.
I think Humera (or someone else) posted one article last year

Anyway, here's an excerpt from an article on the subject that happened to save:

"The queen used to get her shoes designed in Peshawar but they were not
made of pure gold, only gold threads were used on the leather.

"The shoes she wants now will be made from pure gold without leather or
foam."

The newspaper says Jordanian officials had reportedly paid an advance of
£34,468 for the job and the remainder, "a substantial amount of money", will
be paid after delivery."


The rest of the article can be read here
http://archives.tcm.ie/breakingnews/...story33904.asp



  #149  
Old 10-08-2004, 03:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean.~
I think Humera (or someone else) posted one article last year


you know it was me
admit it, it was that post that scared you away from this board for months
  #150  
Old 10-08-2004, 03:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ~*~Humera~*~
you know it was me
admit it, it was that post that scared you away from this board for months
Huh? No, it was the post that got us started on the whole Rania spending thing. There were lots of other (heated) threads on the same subject after that, as well as Jordan's role in the Middle East Peace process, etc. In any case, I know you started the thread on the gold shoes, but I was wasn't sure if you actually posted the article (And I'm too lazy to go look). I recall that someone eventually did.

Anyway, soemone wrote the other day that this board was easy to navigate to back and look for things. Unfortunately, I don't agree :( I can never find what I'm looking for.

I never actually left the board until it started going down every other day & when the other things happened. I just didn't have the time to post. I find that once I start, it's hard to stop, so best not to start at all! ;-)
  #151  
Old 10-08-2004, 04:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean.~
I find that once I start, it's hard to stop, so best not to start at all! ;-)
you dont have to tell me
but im sure newer members on this board will find out soon enough
  #152  
Old 10-08-2004, 06:55 PM
Balqis's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean.~
Actually, they cost more than that. That was just the 'down payment' . they are made out of gold & studded with topazes and diamonds. She had them made in India. She was having them made in Pakistan before but they were only made of leather covered in gold. Apparently that wasn't good enough.
I think Humera (or someone else) posted one article last year

Anyway, here's an excerpt from an article on the subject that happened to save:

"The queen used to get her shoes designed in Peshawar but they were not
made of pure gold, only gold threads were used on the leather.

"The shoes she wants now will be made from pure gold without leather or
foam."

The newspaper says Jordanian officials had reportedly paid an advance of
£34,468 for the job and the remainder, "a substantial amount of money", will
be paid after delivery."


The rest of the article can be read here
http://archives.tcm.ie/breakingnews/...story33904.asp

Let's not rehash old threads. Personally I am very sceptical about the purchase of these gold shoes. I have never seen Queen Rania wearing any gold shoes "studded with topazes and diamonds". From what I've seen Rania gets her shoes from western designers, not from Pakistan and India. Sorry but it makes no sense to me why she would get them from there.

Also, do you believe everything you read that's written in the media, Sean?
  #153  
Old 10-08-2004, 07:20 PM
Safaa Batin's Avatar
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Talking

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean.~
Actually, they cost more than that. That was just the 'down payment' . they are made out of gold & studded with topazes and diamonds. She had them made in India. She was having them made in Pakistan before but they were only made of leather covered in gold. Apparently that wasn't good enough.
I think Humera (or someone else) posted one article last year

Anyway, here's an excerpt from an article on the subject that happened to save:

"The queen used to get her shoes designed in Peshawar but they were not
made of pure gold, only gold threads were used on the leather.

"The shoes she wants now will be made from pure gold without leather or
foam."

The newspaper says Jordanian officials had reportedly paid an advance of
£34,468 for the job and the remainder, "a substantial amount of money", will
be paid after delivery."


The rest of the article can be read here
http://archives.tcm.ie/breakingnews/...story33904.asp



and did You guys believe that?!! and the other people did they belive too?!!!!

No body thought logically that how much it is extremely difficult to walk with a metallic shoes?
  #154  
Old 10-08-2004, 07:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Balqis
Let's not rehash old threads. Personally I am very sceptical about the purchase of these gold shoes. I have never seen Queen Rania wearing any gold shoes "studded with topazes and diamonds". From what I've seen Rania gets her shoes from western designers, not from Pakistan and India. Sorry but it makes no sense to me why she would get them from there.

Also, do you believe everything you read that's written in the media, Sean?
Why not re-has old threads, if it is pertinant to the disscussion?

1. Most shoes -- ie those sold by Western designers -- are made in the East in places like India and Pakistan. It's cheaper to make them there and they specialize in that material. Thus they have the comparative advantage. And just because you haven't seen them doesn't make it untrue. Such shoes are not as rare as you may think.

2. No, I don't believe everything I read, however, I take all of the information available and form my own oponion. And, as you can see, I used the word "reportedly".

3. I will respond to your post excusing Abdullah's policies and equating them with the trajectory deployed by Peter the Great when I have more time. Hopefully tonight.As someone who works in economic development, I will say, however, your excuse for Abdullah's policies and comparison are laughable, IMO, at best. Models of development can not be exported across time (in this case centuries) and space (continents) like that. They have to take cultural, social, historic, geographic specificities into consideration. You make yourself out to be a dependency theorist when it suits you (ie blaming the west for the underdevelopment of the third world), but then change theories when it suits you as well. More later.
  #155  
Old 10-08-2004, 07:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Safaa Batin
and did You guys believe that?!! and the other people did they belive too?!!!!

No body thought logically that how much it is extremely difficult to walk with a metallic shoes?
Gold is very versatile and pliable, particulary 24 karat gold, and there are different ways of workigg with it, depending on the prototype. In any case, it doesn't negate the fact that the woman is extravagant to the extreme. If she wasn't these kinds of stories wouldn't be circulating. No smoke without fire & all that.
  #156  
Old 10-08-2004, 10:51 PM
Safaa Batin's Avatar
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...........

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moon
she might have ordered them just to be known that she has shoes made of gold...why we assume she would wear them in the first place...

Besides, when they say golden shoes...it does not mean that the whole shoes are made of gold...could be the sole, could be some decorations on the shoes...

it was said that she was having an older shoes with leather covered by gold but this time it will be pure gold without leather, that means no leather on the top but gold, because the leather is not used on the sole.

Personally given her extravagant way of life and her hard efforts to look as equal as Westerners,

are westerners wearing golden shoes?!

i wont be surprised even if she would buy them just to put them as a decor item....

shoes decore item! really will be very nice decoration especially for a stylish lady who understands the beauty.

And yes, a 24K gold is very soft....

yes, very very soft, if you have a plain piece of gold try to curve it, it does not curve .. i tried.
  #157  
Old 10-08-2004, 11:12 PM
Safaa Batin's Avatar
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i looked at the golden shoes thread the article was saying:

Quote:
Each pair will weigh 750 grams and will be embellished with diamonds and topaz.
will she be walking carrying 1500 grams ( about 3 pounds ) on her feet ??
  #158  
Old 10-08-2004, 11:17 PM
Safaa Batin's Avatar
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mine is the red.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moon
Matrix: well said...I myself so surprised at the LABOR efforts some posters are making to prove that rania recycles some items to take care of the criticisms she is getting.....Oh man! they must be worshipping her...

may be they are worshipping seeking the truth from different sides, instead of worshipping gossip.


NB: I would like to make it clear here. Do not put words in my mouth and say that i hate her.

did any body say that to you???

not at all but i do not worship her as you do..all what i can say, she is pretty. she made jordan, the poor country with alot of corruption there VISIBLE and i enjoy seeing her damn expensive gowns..they are beautiful and they look good on her....
  #159  
Old 10-08-2004, 11:18 PM
Balqis's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Safaa Batin
i looked at the golden shoes thread the article was saying:


will she be walking carrying 1500 grams ( about 3 pounds ) on her feet ??
LOL I guess that's the idea. Really, it's ludicrous what people will believe, but they are free to form their opinion based on the "facts" of course
  #160  
Old 10-08-2004, 11:28 PM
Safaa Batin's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean.~
... No smoke without fire & all that.
I hate this phrase, because it is used in wrong way, if we think in that way then the word "rumor" will not exist.

yes there is no smoke without fire (depending on my poor knowledge in chemistry) but there are rumors without real source.
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