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  #121  
Old 10-06-2004, 09:26 AM
Aristocracy
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
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do you have any idea how uninformed and naive you sound???


Quote:
Originally Posted by Balqis
It doesn't matter whether King Abdullah flies in a liposuction surgeon or a hairstylist to Jordan every week, what does matter is the future. The billions of dollars in aid given to Jordan by the west is not going to stop regardless of these supposed extravagances. There is no slippery slope to destruction. The Hashemites will not be overthrown from within or without no matter what. All of the criticisms directed against the King, such as lack of free speech, human rights abuses, "despotic" control of parliament etc. etc, are all equally irrelevent. It does not matter how offended or outraged narrow-minded people are at the alleged crimes or misdeeds of the monarchy, all this negative spin amounts to just preaching to the choir. The real issue is the future and the direction that the King is taking his country and the region. The big picture demands a completely new approach, and in order to accomplish his mission, the King must play by new rules. The 20th century is over. The world of His late Majesty King Hussein is gone. Only King Abdullah knows how to create the new order necessary for the Middle East to evolve beyond the conflicts and chaos of the old order. The powers that be in the west realize this and as a result, the King's position is secure. There are of course many people who do not want Jordan to evolve and transform the Middle East. Some of these people, like the old guard in Jordan try to block the king politically and so he dismisses or censures them. Some people like the Islamist fundamentalist terrorists try to stop the King by bringing death and destruction, and so they are killed or imprisoned. Still others like the traditionalist Arab press try to bring the King down by criticizing him in the media, so he shuts them up and doesn't let them spread hate and disinformation. And then there are those in the west (and on the internet) who also resist the idea of a new Jordan and Middle East and so they try to diminish the King by harping on how much money he spends flying in surgeons and hairdressers. All of these people have two things in common: their cause is fruitless and their efforts are in vain. Things must change in the Middle East and it doesn't just include the issue of poverty. The poor and disinfranchised in Jordan are guaranteed to remain that way if the old order is allowed to return, but if the King is able to succeed in his mission who knows what the future can hold. Petty criticism and pessimistic interpretation do nothing but make critics and pessimists feel good about themselves. Hope, optimism, and a new vision for the future are the only things that can change the Middle East.
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  #122  
Old 10-06-2004, 09:28 AM
Humble
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Welcome Back Sean

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean.~
On the same token, are Britain and the US 'underdeveloped', 'third world' countries? How much foreign aid do Britain and the US get? What percentage of the population in the US, Britain, and even Morocco live in refugee camps? What is the unemployment rate in Britain and the US compared to Jordan? The average income of the Jordanian family & their tax rate? What's the GNP of Jordan? Are any ethnic groups officially discriminated against in Britain and the US? How many palaces does the US President have use of? And HM the QE II in comparison to King Abdullah? -- Remember, Jordan has a fraction of the population of thethe UK and US.

Just another perspective, that's all. :)
Welcome back Sean...I am glad you are posting again...for those who do not know...Sean's posts have been always thoughtful with well arguments and facts..I am glad you are back because we have been talking here (in the JRF forum) mainly about clothing, jewellery, bags and so on..And as someone put somewhere when we go deeper beyong those things, some of us get angry and defensive....

It seems that people want always to hear and see fairy tale stories about royalities regardless of the situation of the country they serve or even how this royality came to the power in the first place...
  #123  
Old 10-06-2004, 09:34 AM
Aristocracy
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: , Belize
Posts: 165
if you want a lively debate and not some hero worshipping thread-let us debate the comparisons between pre-revolution France and Jordan. Antoinette v. Rania how will they do in prison? Hussein v. Petite Roi which one will be better suited for the throne once his parents are removed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean.~
Don't worry, I will try and control myself..hehehehehe.
  #124  
Old 10-06-2004, 07:51 PM
Balqis's Avatar
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Ipi Tombe, I am above your personal attacks and will not dignify them with a direct response.

If you want to stick to the issues maybe we can have a real discussion.

P.S. Your analogy to Marie Antoinette is a complete fallacy. There will never be a French Revolution-style uprising in Jordan. There is no valid or sane comparison between 1780's France and modern-day Jordan. The two situations are completely different. Unlike the monarchy of Louis XVI, King Abdullah's rule is protected by the most powerful countries in the world. Also unlike Louis and Marie, King Abdullah and Queen Rania are actually working hard to modernize their country, improve the welfare of their citizens and transform their society for the better. The better historical comparison would be Czar Peter the Great of Russia. Like Abdullah, Peter was in the unpopular position of having to overcome a backward thinking old guard within his nation while simultaneously opening up completely new relationships with the west. In order to secure new international status for his country, Peter had to build new lavish extravagant palaces and put on a dazzling show to impress the west. This caused many to critisize him for his " excesses". Just like Queen Rania, a coat that Peter might wear to a international summit with western monarchs cost more than one Russian family would make in a year. But the end result was his country was respected and given the international aid needed. Louis and Marie deserved to be overthrown because all they did was hold parties for the aristocrats and wallow in their own self-importance. King Abdullah and Queen Rania just like Peter the Great, are modernising their nation and raising its status on the international stage. To do that, they need to look the part and play the role in accordance with the rules of the game. History will judge the results not you.
  #125  
Old 10-06-2004, 08:05 PM
Aristocracy
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: , Belize
Posts: 165
abdullah might be protected by some of the most powerful nations on this planet (by the way-this shows your complete lack of international politics) whereas as Mary & Loui were the king and queen of the most powerful nation.

when the unwashed hordes marched on versailles, their guards stepped aside and let the hordes storm the palace because they sympathized with the hordes. your dear rania and abdullah will face a similar fate. your stupifing ignorance to the mounting war chants and harrowing tenunous nature of the hashmites rule does not negate the fact that the overthrow of the abdullah is hotly debated from DC to Kuwait City to Bejing.

history will march on and justice will be done to the long suffering jordanian poeple. they deserve a noble, intelligent and strong leader. not some midget more obsessed with keeping his botox-addicted wife and puppet masters happy than serving the needs of the people.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Balqis
Ipi Tombe, I am above your personal attacks and will not dignify them with a direct response.

If you want to stick to the issues maybe we can have a real discussion.

P.S. Your analogy to Marie Antoinette is a complete fallacy. There will never be a French Revolution-style uprising in Jordan. There is no valid or sane comparison between 1780's France and modern-day Jordan. The two situations are completely different. Unlike the monarchy of Louis XVI, King Abdullah's rule is protected by the most powerful countries in the world. Also unlike Louis and Marie, King Abdullah and Queen Rania are actually working hard to modernize their country, improve the welfare of their citizens and transform their society for the better. The better historical comparison would be Czar Peter the Great of Russia. Like Abdullah, Peter was in the unpopular position of having to overcome a backward thinking old guard within his nation while simultaneously opening up completely new relationships with the west. In order to secure new international status for his country, Peter had to build new lavish extravagant palaces and put on a dazzling show to impress the west. This caused many to critisize him for his " excesses". Just like Queen Rania, a coat that Peter might wear to a international summit with western monarchs cost more than one Russian family would make in a year. But the end result was his country was respected and given the international aid needed. Louis and Marie deserved to be overthrown because all they did was hold parties for the aristocrats and wallow in their own self-importance. King Abdullah and Queen Rania just like Peter the Great, are modernising their nation and raising its status on the international stage. To do that, they need to look the part and play the role in accordance with the rules of the game. History will judge the results not you.
  #126  
Old 10-06-2004, 08:26 PM
Balqis's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ipi Tombe
you are the ignorant twit here, not me.
I see the quality of your responses continues to be of the highest calibre.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ipi Tombe
when the unwashed hordes marched on versailles, their guards stepped aside and let the hordes storm the palace because they sympathized with the hordes.
The people guarding the Hashemites have only one consideration and that is protecting their principals. They've been trained by the CIA and MI6 and to ignore the masses and would happily die to protect the monarchy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ipi Tombe
your dear rania and abdullah will face a similar fate. your stupifing ignorance
More high quality dialogue!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ipi Tombe
to the mounting war chants and harrowing tenunous nature of the hashmites rule does not negate the fact that the overthrow of the abdullah is hotly debated from DC to Kuwait City to Bejing.
They can debate all they want, but the fact remains that Abdullah is the only true ally of the west in the region and therefore he will remain in power no matter what threats arise within or without. Do not let your hate cloud your judgement on this. You obviously detest the Hashemites for petty personal reasons that have nothing to do with the reality of the situation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ipi Tombe
history will march on and justice will be done to the long suffering jordanian poeple.
Perhaps you think an Iran-style theocracy would be better for the "suffering people"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ipi Tombe
they deserve a noble, intelligent and strong leader. not some midget more obsessed with keeping his botox-addicted wife and puppet masters happy than serving the needs of the people.
These caricatures only show your irrational hatred for the King and Queen and the tone of your denouncements lowers your argument. Are you bloviating in this way just because you want to have this thread shut down? Would an honest and fair discussion of the Hashemites so threaten your assumptions that you have to try and ruin this dialogue with inflammatory nonsense? Or maybe you would just like to keep attacking me personally?
  #127  
Old 10-06-2004, 08:28 PM
Aristocracy
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 198
Talking

Balqis/UFO/Barbara/Steve, your constant insults and barrage of nastiness, crossed the lines of intelligent/civil debate a long time ago.

Ipi, you hit the nail right on the head! Their constant repetition of the same 'facts' and continually both delusional and ignorant posts prove their lack of knowledge. QR and KA care about keeping themselves in power and don't care about their people or the needy unless there is a good pr moment where they can shove a camera in a person in need's face and exploit the situation to make themselves look competent.
  #128  
Old 10-06-2004, 08:35 PM
Ennyllorac's Avatar
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Let's please remember that we are here to have a civil discussion. Please refrain from personal attacks.
  #129  
Old 10-06-2004, 08:39 PM
Aristocracy
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 198
Lightbulb

I have to ask. Why is it when Balqis attempts to personally attack other members, as long as it's a pro Jordanian Royal stance, none of the moderators issue a warning or anything. But anyone else defends themselves against attacks or calls them on it, and right away there's a moderator's warning? I am not the only person who is wondering this.. is there a double standard? One can attack other members as long as they are pro JRF?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ennyllorac
Let's please remember that we are here to have a civil discussion. Please refrain from personal attacks.
  #130  
Old 10-06-2004, 08:39 PM
Aristocracy
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 156
Abdullah is only an ally as long as people are stuffing his pockets full of money.

As far as an Iran style theocracy, well let me tell you....it is coming sooner than you think. Ask anyone in the region or who has lived in the region, and most people will say that they don't even give the Hashemites 8-10 more years on the throne.

If Queen Noor is smart, she will see to it, that her children are prepared to live their lives outside of Jordan and be independent. Making sure that her kids are educated and can keep real jobs would be the best gift that she could give to her kids. Something tells me that this issue is in her thoughts quite a bit.
  #131  
Old 10-06-2004, 08:42 PM
Balqis's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QueenB
Balqis/UFO/Barbara/Steve, your constant insults and barrage of nastiness, crossed the lines of intelligent/civil debate a long time ago.
Just for the record I have never insulted anyone on Jordan Royal Family Forum nor have I been nasty. I stick to the discussion and I refrain from calling people ignorant just because they disagree with me.
  #132  
Old 10-06-2004, 08:47 PM
Ennyllorac's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QueenB
I have to ask. Why is it when Balqis attempts to personally attack other members, as long as it's a pro Jordanian Royal stance, none of the moderators issue a warning or anything. But anyone else defends themselves against attacks or calls them on it, and right away there's a moderator's warning? I am not the only person who is wondering this.. is there a double standard? One can attack other members as long as they are pro JRF?
I made a general comment. It was not addressed to one person in particular but to all involved.
  #133  
Old 10-06-2004, 08:47 PM
Aristocracy
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 198
Talking

Go back and read most of your previous posts and then come back to this thread and tell the truth. You have personally attacked other members you disagreed with continuously.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Balqis
Just for the record I have never insulted anyone on Jordan Royal Family Forum nor have I been nasty. I stick to the discussion and I refrain from calling people ignorant just because they disagree with me.
  #134  
Old 10-06-2004, 08:48 PM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: , Canada
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ennyllorac's comments were directed at everyone in this thread. More than one member is responsible for the turn in attitude and negativity in this thread.

Furthermore, this thread is about Rania's recylcing of outfits. If you would like to further discuss moderatorship of threads take it up with via PM. And if you would like to consider the praising/criticizing of the Jordanian royals, then either start a new thread or PM each other.

Further infractions and attacks in this very thread will result in this entire thread being closed.
  #135  
Old 10-06-2004, 08:49 PM
Gentry
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Safaa Batin
How many average british people live in castles, how many average americans are in the white house, how many average moroccan women wear golden belts?
NB: When a moroccan lady buys a golden belt..It is one in a life time.
As for the Moroccan princesses, you wont see them with a new golden belt every time they show up in a public event..In fact, they dont wear a golden belt in all events...Go back to their pics and check by yourself....
  #136  
Old 10-06-2004, 08:52 PM
Aristocracy
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 198
I agree! It's a pity there is no freedom of speech or freedom of the press in Jordan because then people could really see and say what is happening in their Country and within their government.
Quote:
Originally Posted by paloma
Abdullah is only an ally as long as people are stuffing his pockets full of money.

As far as an Iran style theocracy, well let me tell you....it is coming sooner than you think. Ask anyone in the region or who has lived in the region, and most people will say that they don't even give the Hashemites 8-10 more years on the throne.

If Queen Noor is smart, she will see to it, that her children are prepared to live their lives outside of Jordan and be independent. Making sure that her kids are educated and can keep real jobs would be the best gift that she could give to her kids. Something tells me that this issue is in her thoughts quite a bit.
  #137  
Old 10-06-2004, 08:55 PM
Balqis's Avatar
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Join Date: Mar 2004
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QueenB
Go back and read most of your previous posts and then come back to this thread and tell the truth. You have personally attacked other members you disagreed with continuously.
Maybe we seem to disagree on what the term "personal attack" implies. In my dictionary it signifies saying something negative personally about another individual. I have deliberately stuck to addressing the points in any given argument and that's all. I have never attacked anyone here in the JRF section on a personal basis. If I attack anything it is the issue. I don't call people ignorant, I don't tell them to go and get a stinking life, I do however point out the fallacy of their argument if it is based on hate, disinformation or propaganda.
  #138  
Old 10-06-2004, 08:59 PM
Aristocracy
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 198
If the comments were directed at everyone in this thread, then it should have been said in the post. I brought it up, because I myself have noticed that those warnings only come up when something that isn't pro JRF is said.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexandria
ennyllorac's comments were directed at everyone in this thread. More than one member is responsible for the turn in attitude and negativity in this thread.

Furthermore, this thread is about Rania's recylcing of outfits. If you would like to further discuss moderatorship of threads take it up with via PM. And if you would like to consider the praising/criticizing of the Jordanian royals, then either start a new thread or PM each other.

Further infractions and attacks in this very thread will result in this entire thread being closed.
  #139  
Old 10-06-2004, 09:08 PM
Humera's Avatar
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There's no point in bickering with someone over total strangers.
Its one thing to like/dislike the jordanian royals and another to get into fights over them. None of us know them well enough to take things so personally
  #140  
Old 10-06-2004, 09:18 PM
Gentry
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
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Posts: 75
And Balqis has been also so defensive...After I'd read the latest discussion under this topic..I went and skimmed through Balqis's posts...Oh boy, she is so defensive and like i read in one of the replies to one of her posts...she is indeed a stauncher supporter of the JRF no matter what...love is blind as they say...

But i noticed that those who are not very pro JRF, they made it clear in their posts that they do not hate KA and QR, but their way of living..So, i think that was professional of them to state it and noticed that they indeed focused on their behaviors and not on the persons per se....

Although none of us know these royals personally, i can say with confidence that their behavior is an indicator of who they are...And if we have to wait to live with them to think we can get accurate statements, then this does not make sense...
(e.g. when people elect presidents, they base their opinions on their actions...if they say, i have to know the person personally to elect him, then nothing would be done)..

Human beings do not experience knowledge about someone or something only and strictly through first hand experience..we also get 2nd hand knowledge through other means....How objective we are willing to be depends on your critical thinking, your ability to absorb other's opinions, your ability to accept the differences and so on...

Just an opinion...
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